Is this Traditional?

[Bugbear]

Post deleted.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

So the traditionalists own definition of traditional is something old that has continued unchanged and unbroken until the present day, ergo, since only the army wore kilts during proscription, despite that being because others were banned from doing so, that explains why they think only regulation military uniform is traditional. I think I understand it at last, which doesn't mean I agree, but now I know what they are going on about.

Sorry, O'Callaghan, but -- as any of the Traditionalists will point out -- you are off the mark here. Sorry to leave you in the dark, but it really has nothing to do with 18th century Highland military uniforms. But thanks for asking.

[Woodsheal]

Hey WVPiper. Which fort do you live near? I am also from WV, and a Highland reenactor. I can try to help you with whatever you need. As for the picture, if you recreate that, as long as you have the correct pattern for whichever rank you are portraying for the jacket, and you use period correct fabrics, this depiction is extremely accurate for the 1780's American Frontier.

No, the depiction of the uniform is extremely accurate for the 1750's. Highland military uniforms had changed quite a bit by the 1780's.

The soldiers depicted in these paintings are from the 42nd Reg't of Foot, also know as the Royal Highland Regiment, or the Black Watch. You can tell by the regimental "lace" on the coats, and the dark blue facings (cuffs and collars), worn only by regiments designated as "royal", an honor the 42nd received after their service at Ticonderoga in 1758....

[DWFII]

I don't follow. In fact, I don't understand the 'splitting of hairs' that many of you are engaging in.
I agree with CajunScot that the kilts thought of traditional today, the 8yd knife pleated, is based on the kilts worn in the military post Proscription.

Since it was my remark that was quoted, I feel a response is needed.

I don't think there is any splitting of hairs. I think ...and the Oxford English dictionary agrees with me...that "Traditional" means a practice of some antiquity that has been, and is being, passed down from generation to genration.

Tradition is a form of history but history is not necessarily the basis for labeling something a "tradition."

The uniform in question is historically correct....and beautiful in its own right. But it is not part of Traditional Highland Dress because the wearing of it has not been passed down from generation to generation as appropriate highland attire.

If you are a re-enactor...?? would you go to a gathering of this time period wearing a Jacobite shirt? Or a PV kilt? I suspect you would not, for fear of being branded a "Bob."

History is not how we decide to interpret it, it is what the hard evidence supports. Period. If there are no records, no paintings, no anecdotal testimonies from the time period to give credence to heels on shoes before the late 16th century, or Jacobite shirts in Colonial America then for all intents and purposes...and for the express purpose of meaningful communication...they were not there. All the rest is fantasy and wishful thinking.

[Malcolm MacWilliam]

Well, I was away for a few days and I get back and Cynthia messages me that there is a thread I might be interested in. Aye, that's true (although I'm interested in quite a few threads on the site, as I've learned so much from many of you and have put together several modern "kits" because of it).

So, first off, I have a signed print of Two Warriors hanging in my TV Room, right beside a signed John Buxton print (Passing the Time of Day), the Two Warriors (and in Passing the Time of Day) is a soldier of the 77th Reg't of Foote, Montgomery's Highlanders who came to America in 1757, well you can read about their history at our website, http://musketsofthecrown.homestead.com/77th.html

The 77th is probably most famous because of their leadership during the Forbes Road campaign, 1758 (read about it in Forbes Trail, a great new book on the endeavor) and also the Battle of Bushy Run, 1763. http://www.frenchandindianwar250.org...ral_store.aspx

The Griffing painting is very authentic. By the way, we ID the soldier as 77th because of green facings (42nd had buff, until 1759 when their royal status changed them to blue; 78th white). I did read over Summers and Chartrand's info on the 78th. There IS scant evidence of grenadier companies with mitred caps for Highlanders during the F and I (Seven Years) War. But, we do know that all regiments were to have them and the clothing warrant at this time states that Highland Grenadier units wear the mitred caps with bear fur edging...the only units at that time to do so (all other grenadier units were an all cloth mitred cap). When the British clothing warrants were revamped in 1768, ALL gren caps were given the use of bear fur for English, Welsh and Highland Gren Companies (there was typically one Grenadier Company of about 40 select men for each regiment of about 400 rank and file). There are some surviving gren caps of the Rev. War, one at Brandywine museum, and the 42nd Grens were there.

I would also disagree with Summers and Chartrand on amount of plaide per kilt, 12 yards, double width is not correct, for two reasons....Practicalilty:these were hand pleated kilts, on the ground (which we do all the time at all events), and there is no way 12 yards can be worn with movement needed by a soldier (wears a ton!)....the most that can be worn comfortably is about 6 yards double width, we go with about 4 1/2 yards 55 to 60 inches wide for a great kilt. Also, the lists of purchasing of plaides by the war dept. and Colonels of the time divided among number of men works out to about 4 to 5 yards per men. These kilts, hand pleated, can only be knife pleats as one cannot hand pleat a box pleated kilt. All plaides were shipped over as yards and yards of material and we have never found any info stating that any sewing, loops, etc. were added.....My opinion is that maybe loops and drawstrings were possible but since it's never mentioned, we cannot assume that. Plus, once you hand pleat on the ground about 50 times it is very easy and quick. No reason to mess with any sewing, etc. AND, the plaides were used as blankets.

I understand the opinion that there should be a historical area added to Xmarks....but I'm not sure how often folks would post there. As one of the reenactors here, I would like to see the info posted in General Kilt.....I can understand why some would not want it under traditional. Oh, the bonnet! Yes, a flat bonnet with cockade on left.....There is also some evidence that shows a strip of bear fur was added to the top and a red touri, although Griffing does not show this in his painting.

For many more photos, etc. go to our regimental website: www.muskets-of-the-crown.org. Muskets of the Crown is a non-profit incorporation, and we portray 77th (Seven Years War) and 42nd (Rev. War) both Grenadier Units. We know much about the 42nd Gren unit because the best diary written by a Rev. War soldier was written by John Peebles, Capt. of the 42nd Grenadier Company.

I would be willing to answer any questions. I've been doing 18th century Highland military for 15 years....before that I did longhunter (Last of Mohicans stuff) for about 10 years and when not in Highland military garb, will hunt, etc. in breechclout, leggins, moccasins ala Hawkeye (a bald, rounder Hawkeye!). It's a great history to portray and our unit is one of the best known in the British reenacting circles. We have much pride in portraying those brave Highlanders who were here 225+ years ago.

Malcolm MacWilliam, 77th/42nd Reg'ts, GrenCoy
Jacobite Army, Clan Chattan
www.muskets-of-the-crown.org
Army Sjt. Major,British Brigade
www.britishbrigade.org

[Woodsheal]

Thanks, Malcolm, on the correction. I don't own the paintings and the facings look blue on my monitor, which is why I instantly thought 42nd...!

[Malcolm MacWilliam]

Sure, Brian, and hope to see you at Oswego this year. Remember, if you ever want to fall in with 77th or 42nd Grens as a visitor for a weekend, you are always welcome!! I can kit you out. Malcolm

[DWFII]

I got so wrapped up reading Malcom's remarks I got a little sidetracked...I wanted to apologize for diverting this thread to flat caps even if only momentarily...it wasn't my intention to hijack the thread.

[Woodsheal]

Sure, Brian, and hope to see you at Oswego this year. Remember, if you ever want to fall in with 77th or 42nd Grens as a visitor for a weekend, you are always welcome!! I can kit you out. Malcolm

Ooooh! I'll go check out your calendar!! (and yes, I'll be at Oswego - at least for a day)....

[wvpiper]

I don't think there is any splitting of hairs. I think ...and the Oxford English dictionary agrees with me...that "Traditional" means a practice of some antiquity that has been, and is being, passed down from generation to genration.

ooh, the dictionary card.......well played sir.
But I shall point out that the description of the 'traditional thread' is :
"The place to talk about traditionally made kilts and classic highland apparel and style."

I guess your argument will now be that Highland Regimental attire from the mid 18th century, which by the way outdates and is therefore more antiquated than your 'traditional' kilt , is not 'classic highland apparel'.

So be it-I admitted I mis-titled the thread, and was asking about the authenticity of the depicted attire. I asked to have it moved to appease
the 'traditionalists'. Victory is yours.