Royal Regiment of Scotland

[dfmacliam]

I have nothing but respect for Jock, and the other members in Scotland.. I have learned a lot and made choices based on their opinions..one of which, I will only wear one tartan, the other is my newly aquired Marine Corps Regimental tie... I expect to continue to learn and grow with the input of all on this site and hope I can be a positive influence on others because of it..
I hope I was not sounding disrespectful in any way because that was/ would never be my intentions. I do feel a bit bad, because it was the answer to my question that cause the bit of dissention on here.

[Jock Scot]

I have nothing but respect for Jock, and the other members in Scotland.. I have learned a lot and made choices based on their opinions..one of which, I will only wear one tartan, the other is my newly aquired Marine Corps Regimental tie... I expect to continue to learn and grow with the input of all on this site and hope I can be a positive influence on others because of it..
I hope I was not sounding disrespectful in any way because that was/ would never be my intentions. I do feel a bit bad, because it was the answer to my question that cause the bit of dissention on here.

Don't worry about it ,my dear chap. Actually I don't think it was you that set off my train of thought, in fact no one in particular is responsible and even if they were, it would not be right to single them out. In truth, it is a combination of what is going on in another couple of threads plus what was being said here that brought about my thoughts gelling and being posted. Thank you for your kind words by the way!

[Tartan Hiker]

Well. I can assure everyone that I, too, maintain the utmost respect for all our members. However, since I'm the one that was being accused of impertinence, here is the historical reference to which I was referring. You can all take from it what you will:

Here is a quote from kilt historian Bob Martin in his book "All About Your Kilt":

"The turn of the century saw the kilt growing once again. The novel form of 'pleating to the sett' combined with a narrow knife pleating (which had recently become acceptable), produced a kilt with 6, then 7 then 8 or more yards of tartan. Though knife pleating had it's advent ca. 1853 in the military (the Gordon Highlanders), acceptance was so slow that in 1880 it was still being considered an 'incorrect' form of pleating. In 1901, 'Pleating to Sett' was so new that it had no name to describe it, other than a novel idea, the pleats showing the same pattern as that of the apron."

No doubt Mr. Martin was referring to the next document when he wrote the passage above, quoted from "The Kilt and How to Wear It" (1901) by Stuart Erskine:

"This pleat (to the sett) is comparatively rarely practiced; but I am pleased to observe that it is becoming more popular; for though it may not have age and precedence to recommend it...it is undoubtedly more becoming than the other."

I do have to apologize for my error...this was written in 1901 rather than 1902 as I previously posted. Mea culpa.

[Jock Scot]

I hear what you say Matt. I have started a new thread "theory and practice" in general kilt talk.

[Kid Cossack]

I don't mean to be contentious, and I hope this will not be mistaken, but in reading this thread I thought of two very different kilts that I have owned. The first was a Stillwater heavyweight in weathered Lamont tartan. This was (I have since sold it) an eight yard tartan kilt pleated to the sett. I hasten to point out that it was also machine-sewn in Pakistan.

The second kilt is (I still have it!) a Matt Newsome box pleated tweed kilt. It was made from four yards of Harris tweed, and hand sewn.

Both, in my view, are kilts.

Common perception, certainly here in America, and doubtless also in Scotland, would be that the SWK weathered Lamont was the "real kilt." I.e., it conforms to the popular understanding of "eight yards, tartan, knife pleated."

However, by any "traditionalist" measure the Newsome box pleat is far more a "real kilt." The wool is from the Isle of Harris. I believe the Harris Tweed Authority defines Harris tweed as "cloth that has been handwoven by the islanders of Lewis, Harris, Uist and Barra in their homes, using pure virgin wool that has been dyed and spun in the Outer Hebrides." My understanding and belief after reasonable inquiry is that Matt Newsome sews all his kilts by hand.

I only offer this comparison to point out the cognitive dissonance that may go hand in hand with any attempt to place absolute definitions on what a thing is.

[Jock Scot]

I don't mean to be contentious, and I hope this will not be mistaken, but in reading this thread I thought of two very different kilts that I have owned. The first was a Stillwater heavyweight in weathered Lamont tartan. This was (I have since sold it) an eight yard tartan kilt pleated to the sett. I hasten to point out that it was also machine-sewn in Pakistan.

The second kilt is (I still have it!) a Matt Newsome box pleated tweed kilt. It was made from four yards of Harris tweed, and hand sewn.

Both, in my view, are kilts.

Common perception, certainly here in America, and doubtless also in Scotland, would be that the SWK weathered Lamont was the "real kilt." I.e., it conforms to the popular understanding of "eight yards, tartan, knife pleated."

However, by any "traditionalist" measure the Newsome box pleat is far more a "real kilt." The wool is from the Isle of Harris. I believe the Harris Tweed Authority defines Harris tweed as "cloth that has been handwoven by the islanders of Lewis, Harris, Uist and Barra in their homes, using pure virgin wool that has been dyed and spun in the Outer Hebrides." My understanding and belief after reasonable inquiry is that Matt Newsome sews all his kilts by hand.

I only offer this comparison to point out the cognitive dissonance that may go hand in hand with any attempt to place absolute definitions on what a thing is.

You are of course quite correct,but you are missing my point. The perception of what the Scots call a "real" kilt is not the one(second one) you describe. It is the 8 yard, knife pleated,wool, tartan, etc.,etc. And nothing else will do. In spite of what history, you , me, Matt who know better , say.

[Kid Cossack]

Jock Scot:

No, sir, I took your point. I may have been going off on a tangent, as I frequently do. Of the few contentious episodes that have occurred as a result of being kilted, a couple of them involved Scots who objected to modern/casual/neo-traditional kilts I have worn. One fellow insisted that the Newsome kilt was not, in point of fact, a kilt, but a skirt, and that thus I was cross-dressing. (He was neither angry nor offended, he simply thought I was in the wrong in calling it a kilt.)

I laid out my line of argument (heavily cribbed from Matt Newsome): hand sewn of Scottish wool, using a traditional early kilt pattern, and, I believe, even referencing John Brown's tweed kilts. He was unswayed by my arguments. "Very well," says I to he, "then by your standards I am cross dressing, but by my standards, I am not. By my standards, I am kilted." Then he bought me a tot of whisky, and I bought him one, and we parted with nary a hard word between us.

I prefer to be respectful, as a matter of courtesy and good manners. However, frequently I am willing to "swim against the tide" as it were, if I am convinced that I am in the right (after suitable investigation and contemplation).

I should also point out that, even when casually kilted (to include such "heresies" as a camouflage kilt), I have had a number of positive encounters with Scots tourists or immigrants who have approved of my adoption of a (modified form of) their national dress.

If---nay, when!---I travel to Scotland, I may compromise my principles in the interest of comity and wear what is popularly accepted as a true kilt. But should I refrain from wearing a box pleated or other short yardage kilt, I will be doing so out of courtesy for prevailing opinion, and not out of any sense that my "lesser" kilts are "less" in any sense save yardage.

[Jock Scot]

Kid Cossack

I am all for courtesy and understanding and I am not in the least surprised that one of the Scots called your box pleated kilt a skirt. I am delighted that it all ended well with a wee dram!

By all means wear your box pleated kilt in Scotland and you will be made very welcome,be prepared(you are, I suppose!) for confused looks at the very least. Have fun.

[Tony]

welcome,be prepared(you are, I suppose!) for confused looks at the very least. Have fun.

Let's be honest.
Most of the confused looks from Scots would be because of "Why's that guy wearing a kilt? There's no a game today is there?", not because it was a box-pleat.

(this post is only a quarter tongue in cheek.)

[Jock Scot]

Let's be honest.
Most of the confused looks from Scots would be because of "Why's that guy wearing a kilt? There's no a game today is there?", not because it was a box-pleat.

(this post is only a quarter tongue in cheek.)

I wish you were right, sadly I don't think you are.