formal evening dress: vest or no?

[Jock Scot]

I don't think we differ by much Sandy. Interesting picture there too, with a jabot and a three(?) buttoned waistcoat, I have never seen that before. You are quite right that for effective wearing of the jabot and the PC, almost perfect tailoring is required both with the kilt and the PC. Sadly that is a rare event.

[davidlpope]

As an aside, does anyone know when Scott Adie went out of business? I recently bought a brown leather day sporran made by them and it shows very little signs of wear.

David

[MacBean]

I've had little occasion for formal kilting, so don't know one coat from another too well yet. In JSFMACLJR (MacLean Jr?)'s pictures we find Cluny MacPherson and MacLean of Dochgarroch both wearing what looks like the same kind of jacket at a formal occasion. What would be the name of that jacket?

I like tradition but also encourage modernity and forward thinking. I find I like the 5-button vest and also the jacket worn by the two Clan Chattan chiefs, but the PC - well, not so much.

[davidlpope]

I've had little occasion for formal kilting, so don't know one coat from another too well yet. In JSFMACLJR (MacLean Jr?)'s pictures we find Cluny MacPherson and MacLean of Dochgarroch both wearing what looks like the same kind of jacket at a formal occasion. What would be the name of that jacket?

I like tradition but also encourage modernity and forward thinking. I find I like the 5-button vest and also the jacket worn by the two Clan Chattan chiefs, but the PC - well, not so much.

Cluny is wearing a Regulation Doublet. I believe Dochgarroch is wearing a formal Argyle jacket.

David

[JSFMACLJR]

Cluny is wearing a Regulation Doublet. I believe Dochgarroch is wearing a formal Argyle jacket.

David

Correct.

[MacLowlife]

I think a cummerbund only looks silly with a kilt if it looks silly with a tuxedo. Granted, the waist is higher on kilts than it is on most modern formal trousers, but such was not always the case. There are some body types that really work better with cummerbunds than with waistcoats.

I do not object to a tartan bowtie, by the way, but not in the same (idzack) tartan as the kilt below. This was discussed some months back and many wise and kindly heads advised against it, but I am more convinced than ever that a little mixing can be attractive and tasteful.

The argument was that you shouldn't wear two clans' tartans at the same time, which makes good sense, unless you can claim strong ties to both. And no, I am not going to do this in the Highlands or the Western Isles. I am talking about doing it in the Southeastern US. My biggest argument in favor of the two tartan look is that the very people who recommend against two clan tartans seem not to mind two tartans from the same clan. Not so long ago, on the "silk neckties" thread, someone pointed out that a Maple Leaf Tartan kilt and a regimental necktie that had none of the same colors "matched" because they were two items worn by the same group and could be worn together.

At the risk of taking this thread even further off the track, I believe that any decision will be ( or should be) based on two sets of criteria- what is "correct" or acceptable and what looks good. What is correct tends to slide along as time goes on, mostly because some smart Aleck is always pushing the boundaries of acceptability. On the other hand, what looks good can also be influenced by fashion, but it is not necessarily bound by rules, other than some theoretical rules of aesthetics and usually by common sense.... So, if Duncan Alexander or Grant Walker or Campbell MacDonald decides to wear one tartan around his neck and another one around his waist, I would suggest the real question is "Do you really want to mix red, burgundy, and orange?" rather than "Where are the tartan police when we really need them?"

Because, let's face it, the really traditional way to wear tartan includes wearing two or three or four at once and quite possibly without any notion of clan significance. That is assuming you go for such newfangled innovations as loomed cloth, instead of good old traditional fur.

Having said all of that and raised a few hackles, I WILL say that I believe a tartan cummerbund with a tartan kilt is probably asking for trouble.

[davidlpope]

I think a cummerbund only looks silly with a kilt if it looks silly with a tuxedo.

I do not object to a tartan bowtie, by the way, but not in the same (idzack) tartan as the kilt below. This was discussed some months back and many wise and kindly heads advised against it, but I am more convinced than ever that a little mixing can be attractive and tasteful.

De gustibus non est disputandum ...

[JSFMACLJR]

Because, let's face it, the really traditional way to wear tartan includes wearing two or three or four at once and quite possibly without any notion of clan significance. That is assuming you go for such newfangled innovations as loomed cloth, instead of good old traditional fur.

Having said all of that and raised a few hackles, I WILL say that I believe a tartan cummerbund with a tartan kilt is probably asking for trouble.

Shouldn't that be "the really HISTORICAL way to wear tartan"?

[Jock Scot]

Ted what you are seeing between Sandy and me and no doubt M o R too is a minor difference in detail nothing more. It is no different than you deciding to wear a straw hat to keep off the sun and your neighbour, just down the road, choosing to wear a "John Deere" hat. It is only details that we are talking about, not the basic principles. Thank goodness for these variations of the same theme, it would be no good if we all dressed like peas in a pod, now would it?

[thescot]

I would advise never wearing the five-button vest with a PC. And that scrunchy thing, well it's just not even worth discussing.

I almost always agree with Jock, MoR, and JSFMACLJR. But I must say that I do not care for the beltless look if there is no waistcoat. I think I have only worn a PC sans waistcoat one time, and I had a black belt with sllver waist plate at the time; it was mostly due to hot weather, as I recall, and I kind of like the look even though I rarely emply it. (Heavy emphasis on "kind of" since I am not completely sold on it.)

And the PC with belt but no waistcoat seems to be a very clean look. A starched white shirt is part of the overall balck tie look, I think, and both the belt and three-button waistcoat allow it to be seen. So, stick with the basics and tradition and you'll always be thought well-dressed. As Jock pointed out, the differences are quite minor.