Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[Reiver]

At the risk of repeating myself, insecurity is not the issue, mild irritation in others perceptions most certainly is. They are not one and the same. I really do not understand why you are wanting to pursue your train of thought when you have been informed, plainly, that you are barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry if I missinterpreted your comment but am referring to this posting....

Originally Posted by Jock Scot
Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.
Jock,

[Jock Scot]

Sorry if I missinterpreted your comment but am referring to this posting....

Originally Posted by Jock Scot
Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.
Jock,

Exactly so. It is perfectly clear that I am questioning those from outwith Scotland's shores and I hope in a courteous way, about their insecurity over wanting to be something that they are obviously not. Well, from a Scot's perspective anyway, which is why a sensible and non confrontational discussion may be useful all round.

[Reiver]

Exactly so. It is perfectly clear that I am questioning those from outwith Scotland's shores and I hope in a courteous way, about their insecurity over wanting to be something that they are obviously not. Well, from a Scot's perspective anyway, which is why a sensible and non confrontational discussion may be useful all round.

Jock,
You are an intelligent individual yet you use adjectives like 'desperate' and 'insecure' and expect a sensible non confrontational discussion. Do you find those adjectives to be non confrontational?

E.g. I'd like to discuss your desperate insecurities and other phobias in a calm and sensible manner...now, about your issues....

You have a nice day then Jock.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,
You are an intelligent individual yet you use adjectives like 'desperate' and 'insecure' and expect a sensible non confrontational discussion. Do you find those adjectives to be non confrontational?

E.g. I'd like to discuss your desperate insecurities and other phobias in a calm and sensible manner...now, about your issues....

You have a nice day then Jock.

Actually I personally don't consider the words to be confrontational when used in the context that they were used, as it describes my perception of the situation exactly, as it does for many in Scotland. However from long experience of some members sensibilities on this website I did add a "sorry" to lighten up the post a tad. Actually your posts prove my point rather well!

[davidlpope]

I am questioning those from outwith Scotland's shores and I hope in a courteous way, about their insecurity over wanting to be something that they are obviously not. Well, from a Scot's perspective anyway...

Jock,

Just so that the point is sufficiently narrow:

When Americans say, "I am Scottish", they are communicating "I am [an American citizen of] Scottish [descent]."

Is the disagreement over the form of the words? Or do you take issue with whether Americans who identify as "Scottish" are actually "American citizens of Scottish descent". Or is it that you don't see why Americans with distant Scottish ancestry would have any interest in such distant ancestry?

David

[neloon]

David,
It seems to me that, if someone in the US says "I am French" that is not to be taken as it would be in other countries. Comprenez vous? (I could understand it in Canada because of the strong French cultural presence.) Or does some kind of context tell you what "I am French" means.

Alan

[Jock Scot]

As I have pointed out just recently David, maybe in this thread or the one that was closed down just before you restarted the conversation here, that I have Russian, Australian, French, English, German ancestry floating about in my genes. I am not a Russian-Scot or anything else-Scot. I am a Scot. I am not unusual in Scotland. Do I wander about with a string of onions round my neck, to celebrate my French Genes? NO. Do I wander about the place playing the didgeridoo with a boomerang tucked into my belt? No. That does not mean that I wish to forget my ancestors, far from it, but that is my families business, no one else's.

We all come from somewhere, as some one has pointed out here and the Scots are no different. If I could use you as an example, I have no idea where your ancestors hail from really and whilst these things matter to you, they matter not one bit to me. As far as I am concerned-----and most of Scotland I venture to suggest-------you are an American.

We don't care that you are a young country-----older than many-----you are a population made up from immigrants from all walks of life, from all around the world----and?----- you are from a huge country, both in landmass and population-------we know all that, we don't need telling!That is just a load of fact nothing more and from a Scots point of view, so what? All that matters to us is that you are American. Should we meet up one day I would not dream of wanting to know anything about your ancestry and I would not expect to discuss my ancestors with you either. You are an American, I am a Scot what else needs to be said?

[neloon]

Actually I personally don't consider the words to be confrontational when used in the context that they were used, as it describes my perception of the situation exactly, as it does for many in Scotland. However from long experience of some members sensibilities on this website I did add a "sorry" to lighten up the post a tad. Actually your posts prove my point rather well!

Jock,
I think over the centuries we, in Scotland, - maybe in the UK - have developed thick skins. They don't seem to be like that in the US and maybe that's why we are lumbered with rule #5 etc.
I know that, if you and I were to meet I would challenge you over your desire to kill innocent creatures of mountain, moor and river, I think we would disagree over politics, maybe religion (or lack of it) too. But all that would be FUN - part of mutual understanding and becoming closer friends. It might sometimes be contentious but not confrontational. Sadly it doesn't seem to be like that in the States. But, at least, Reiver's posts don't seem to be getting any "Ayes" from his compatriots.

Alan

[ThistleDown]

I don't think that Scots or Englishmen or Germans or Poles would be happy to stop at saying that they are Europeans. I think that they would want to say that they are Scots or Englishmen or Germans or Poles. When you consider the issue of scale, that's what we're dealing with.

David, I don't think that's the same thing.
'Europe' is a continent, not a nation, just as North America is a continent, not a nation. The EU is an economic entity, but not a nation. For a Scot to say he is European is correct. But for a citizen of Germany to say he is Scottish because both nations are in Europe is not correct. Nor is it correct for the German whose great grandmother's name was Smith to claim to be English.

For a citizen of the United States, Canada or Mexico to say he is North American is correct, too. But for an American to say that he is Canadian because his great grandmother was born in Canada isn't correct.

I think the original question was a reasonable genealogical one. It did recognise that those who call themselves Scottish-American are, as you say, recognising their Scottish roots. The OP asked why those who describe themselves thus believe it to be necessary; in other words, isn't 'American' sufficient? Jock described his ancestry. I was born of a Scottish father and an English mother; my mother's parents were English and Irish. My father's parents were Scottish and Irish and his mother's were Irish and Norwegian. In Scotland, as in America, we are a mixed breed. But we call ourselves Scots without hyphens to anything else. This whole discussion isn't accusatory or confrontational, it's simply seeking information and understanding.

[ThistleDown]

Alan, Rule 5 is there because the forum knows, from vast experience, that to permit discussion of politics and/or religion when our focus is on kilts, is to court disaster. The 'genealogy' sub-set of the forum is to allow those whose ancestry is Scottish to discuss how that affects their thinking.