Freedom in Tradition

[Bugbear]

Ah, don't worry about it, MacLowlife, it will set in eventually.

I catch myself using < and > instead of brackets a lot of times, so it's just getting used to the way it all works.

[CMcG]

Indeed! Some photos in would certainly help back up the usual supects authoritarian statements and sycophantic agreement!

Is that another way of saying you disagree with Erskine and that THCD is not a free style of dress?

I don't think Zardoz is the only one around the forum who seems to feel negatively toward the rules of Highland dress, as expressed by our resident experts. In some ways I'm surprised no-one else has voiced these opinions on this thread...

I know the traditionalists are strong in their opinions, but does anyone want to take a crack at arguing for a different interpretation of Erskine? I'm not trying to incite any flaming and I trust that this would be done while staying within the rules of the forum.

[tripleblessed]

I liked Erskine's statement the first time I read it. I still like it. I hear a gentleman saying that while he might have his own ideas of what constitutes good taste, he has no willingness to decide for others choices he feels they must make for themselves. He was well aware that highland dress did not arise out of whole cloth in Victorian or even Georgian times, but evolved into what was current then (and on into what we know now). He was also aware that Scots were a pretty diverse and entertaining lot, and their wardrobes were the proof. If they had to appear at court, requirements must be met, likewise with serving military Outside that, Devil take those rude enough to comment. I tend to be pretty casual in my attire, unless the occasion calls for more. When it does, I tend to choose pretty conservatively. I don't have a problem taking center stage, but I don't have any need to do so. If someone else wants to, I pray for good choices, but I'm willing to give them room to crash and burn, hoping next time they'll think first. It appears that some agree with my position, and the words of Erskine, that Highland dress is free, others feel instead that the rules ARE hard hard and fast, and that those who disagree should remove themselves from view. If I have misstated anyone's position, it was in error, not malice, as all I have to go on are the poster's own words.

[artificer]

Is that another way of saying you disagree with Erskine and that THCD is not a free style of dress?

I don't think Zardoz is the only one around the forum who seems to feel negatively toward the rules of Highland dress, as expressed by our resident experts. In some ways I'm surprised no-one else has voiced these opinions on this thread...

I know the traditionalists are strong in their opinions, but does anyone want to take a crack at arguing for a different interpretation of Erskine? I'm not trying to incite any flaming and I trust that this would be done while staying within the rules of the forum.

I'm not a native Scot, nor did I grow up in a Scots-American household, so my views are heavily coloured by my Saxon (quite literally) background.

I find casual Highland dress VERY free, and formal dress equally so. I'll do a quick comparison by event / Saxon / Highland. I may make a few mistakes, so be kind, but here's how I see it:

Day event -nice casual
Saxon- polo and khakis, maybe broadcloth shirt. Possibly cords & sweater/jacket if cool out. Your choice of shoes/belt.

Highland - polo, sweater, jacket - your choice. A rainbow of hose and garters to choose from. Multiple sporran choices and leather goods colours to make. You get a knife in your sock too!

Day event - business dress
Saxon- blue or grey suit- single or double breasted. Your choice of shirt and tie. Shoe colour usually dictated by suit colour.

Highland- Your choice of shirt/tie as above. A riot of tweeds and baratheas in a standard jacket, but your jacket can have nearly any 'cut' to it you please (it can even be made from an old Saxon jacket). Waistcoat, SURE. Hose as above, or go Argyll/diced. Sporrans as above.

Day event - formal
Saxon - Morning jacket (no option to speak of)
Highland - see above entry for business dress, less tweed, shift buttons to chrome or gold instead of bone/leather.

Evening event - formal
Saxon - black or white tie tux. A few minor options for cut of tux, shirts and possibly tie or waistcoat colour (for black tie only). A very few options for shoes.

Highland - 3 or 4 main choices for doublets as well as Argyll jackets or PCs. MULTIPLE material options (velvet, barathea, standard wool) and colour choices (nearly any). Choice of tie (black) or jabot. Possible waistcoat choices to match your kilt, basic black, red or to match your jacket. Still have the riot of colour options for hose and garters, as well as the numerous patterning possibilities. You do lose the leather colour choice for the most part here- nearly always black.

IF it's a really formal white tie 'do' you might even wear a dirk! That can only happen in Saxon dress if you're a member of a certain few knightly orders (or a ren-fester sorry, I couldn't resist!)


IMO there are so many options it can make your head spin, if you really sit down and think about it. I don't really know why people get peeved about "the rules", as there are WAAAAY many more for non-highland dress.

I think that in many cases, Saxon dressers have internalized their rules (having grown up with them) and don't really see them as rules, just "what's done". Having someone inform them what is appropriate for Highland wear just irks.

Although it DOES beg the question for those who are so irked, WHY, if you ARE so irked by "the rules", are you dwelling in the "Traditional Highland Dress" forum?

[davidlpope]

Although it DOES beg the question for those who are so irked, WHY, if you ARE so irked by "the rules", are you dwelling in the "Traditional Highland Dress" forum?

Very good point...

[Tobus]

I think that in many cases, Saxon dressers have internalized their rules (having grown up with them) and don't really see them as rules, just "what's done". Having someone inform them what is appropriate for Highland wear just irks.

Perfectly made point. And I think, if I understand them correctly, that many of our native Scots feel the same way about Highland dress. As Jock Scot and MacMillan of Rathdown have pointed out so many times, they have grown up wearing this attire and just naturally know what's 'right' and what's not. It's only when we who didn't grow up in such an environment start asking what the 'rules' are that they have to start writing down these rules.

It would probably be the same if we were on a forum for Saxon style dress, trying to explain the 'rules' of wearing trousers to people who had only worn loin cloths their whole lives.

[MacLowlife]

We can go back and forth all day ( and have, to my great pleasure) on some of these points, but Tobus makes something clear that was floating around before. Many of the things we talk about are assumed and understood, though they needn't necessarily be. For instance, all of the doublets we discuss have sleeves, bodies of a similar construction ( no pullovers, no collarless, not many pleats, no puffs, or lacings) and a very narrow accepted range of lengths. THCD assumes a narrow range of shirt styles, as well, and shoes that go no further up the leg than the ankle, if that far.

A dress doublet may be tartan, black, blue, or even red or green, but they are seldom orange or brown or striped or polka dotted. Sooner or later, someone may bespeak one in watered silk or brocade, but we will accept it or disdain it based on universally accepted ideas or rules and archetypes. Mostly, we will ask if it looks right or wrong- does it follow the rules.

By contrast, people in the world today wear garments that balloon, garments that stop anywhere from the crotch to the toes, garments that conceal and ones that occasionally expose. And, if you will look in the very back of the "modern dress" closet, back into the part where the labels are hand written and the hangers are forged, you will find all manner of funky stuff. But if I say "pants" or "trousers" most of us will imagine a garment that resembles Levis or at least Gov't Issue Uniform trousers, ca 1960-1980 ( pardon, that is Trousers, Dress, 1960 Pattern). And we know instinctively how to wear them.

What looks "right" comes from what you have seen again and again. Just as somebody can grow up with skinny jeans and turtlenecks or 6 inch lapels and flared legs, somebody did grow up with knee breeches and brocades. We adapt to changing times, but we form our tastes at an early age, as MoR pointed out earlier. What looks "good" can vary, based on our individual shape, the thickness of our wallets, and the limits of our creativity... And the approval of our chosen audience, of course.

[tripleblessed]

I have never argued in favor of bad taste. I personally enjoy looking well put
together. I personally spend time on this forum because I enjoy knowledge,
and this is a wonderful source of same. I marvel at both the breadth and depth of the knowledge and experience shared here by all, including those accused of authoritarian leanings. Maybe ESPECIALLY those. I absolutely relish MoR's wonderful ability to choose the most deliciously perfect word to convey idea and attitude at the same time. I treasure Jock Scot's willingness to be direct in an arena many of his peers might think beneath them or a waste of their time.I'm amazed by JSFMacLean's experience, and the libraries required to make the references they and Thistledown and others make. I stand in awe of the skills displayed on the DIY forum. Most of all, I appreciate everyone's willingness to share their time and knowledge. If I appear to be bridling, it is only at the concept that we as individuals have the RIGHT to tell others how they MUST do it. I will always stand for the individual right to choose. Think how you want, in public be civil, welcoming, compassionate. Our forebears did not have the variety of kit
available to many here, but they would not have been turned away or
shunned at most events for having worn a day sporran to an evening event,
in most cases. Personal opinion only. I don't speak for any group of rebel
dissidents attempting to destroy Highland Dress. Nor am I attempting to inflame the forum or tease the mods. I just refuse to take personal insult if some bozo shows in inappropriate attire.

[wildrover]

Well, I thought I posted this yesterday before I took off, guess not...sorry, I'm a day behind!

And what is so hard to put one's finger on is good tailoring, careful fitting, distinctive fabrics and the patina of age and quality. Look for the man who looks better than everybody else, even if he is dressed "the same" as everybody else.

For some people, tailoring accentuates the physique. For others, it is camouflage. In either case, it takes into account the shape of the wearer, not just the shape of a pattern in a factory. It is always worth what it costs.

I brought this up earlier, but maybe it was lost in the shuffle. Or maybe it was a different thread...point is...

One thing that I also have noticed is that it's easy to spot the guys who are truly comfortable in a kilt--comfortable enough to "do their own thing".

...McLL's and Whidbey's comments go hand in hand. I cannot stress how critical this is, for every article of clothing you wear. Maybe you'll think "holy @#$! he's rich" or "what a snob" or who knows what, when I say that the few jackets I own, and all the dress shirts I wear tucked in, and even my jeans, have been altered. It's not expensive at all, and the result is clothing that complements you, rather than clothing that just happens to be on your body. Look up your local tailors...should be a good handful under "alterations" or "seamstress" or "tailor". I am not rich, hopefully I am a snark but not a snob, and it is totally worth it.

Well-tailored clothing accentuates an athletic figure, hides the spare tire, and can even direct attention away from the front-butt. If you're not familiar with the idea...go to the men's department in a pair of slim (ie classic cut) dark blue jeans, have your measurements taken for a jacket, and try on several labels. They are all cut slightly different. Now close the button, and look at yourself in the mirror. Too tight in the torso, and the button will pull...it looks like you're a fat guy in a little suit, regardless your actual degree of fitness. Kilt equivalent is jacket too small, kilt too high. On the other hand, too much material around the middle will make you look like a kid who got in to his dad's closet. Coupled with a pair of oversize jeans, you'll look like a clown. Kilt equivalent is jacket too big, kilt too low. Balance the kit to your figure, and you'll be fine.

Look at the shoulders, and the line between the shoulders and waist, when you button up. Does it form a wedge, or does it drop straight down? What does your own body do? Can the cut give the impression of an athletic wedge, even if you look more like a pear?

Shirts aren't much different...a lot of dress shirts I've tried on have had several inches of additional material around the waist, but not necessarily enough around the chest, when the shoulder seams are about right. Solution? Look for tailor-made shirts...the price is not much higher than a good quality tailored shirt off the rack.

When your clothing fits you properly, you will wear it like it's not there. No need to stuff all that additional material in your shirt down the back of your pants, or bunching fabric in the arms of your jacket, or shirt/vest/jacket billowing in the wind even though you're buttoned up and tucked in.

Last item on this "fit" list...a while back, when I was looking at jackets, I asked if kilt jackets could be buttoned, because 99% of the photos I've seen have shown the jacket open. Yeah, it's more casual to leave it open, but all that time and effort going in to fitment, and the flattery it provides, they are all completely wasted when you leave it open. There are photos of guys with their jackets buttoned, but you'll have to look hard. Consider using the button.

Personally I think some honest attention to fit will go much farther than choosing the color of your pocket square or whatever. You can make a clown suit from Armani fabric, and you'll still just have an expensive clown suit.

All the rest? Go to a club and see who stands out, and why. Go to a ball (or something like it) and look for the same thing. Evening engagement at the arts, look there too. You'll see fit, subtlety, balance, confidence, and gentle pushing at the guidelines will always look better than a loud tie, bling, or nice fabric without attention to fit.

So...maybe the answer is "no, there isn't room for change"...the standard will always be set by small personal touches of elegance rather than overly insistent or ostentatious statements of individuality.

If anything, I think those of us here who do not make a "cause" of kilts, save that of promoting tradition and heritage, are breaking the mold. I don't begrudge any FT-kiltie, but one doesn't have to make a daily thing of it to be a kiltie.

T.

Well said...I don't wear mine every day...but then it's not always the best clothing for the job, and I'm not gonna wrap up just for the sake of wearing it. However, that does not change how I wear it, what I wear with it, or my judgment of what looks good with it...it's just clothing, for crissakes. All the advice a guy can use, when dressing for any occasion, is just as good for kilts as pants...make use of it.

how much room is there to look different?

I get what you're saying...however...I would suggest that you look to modern sartorial sources and apply their suggestions to the top, with your kilt and choice of socks and shoes, and see how it goes. Example...for a while last year there was a fashion of lining the cuffs and collar with a complementary fabric to the body of the shirt, so it would show when the collar was open and cuffs rolled back. It's a good look. It was also not uncommon to see the cuffs rolled back over a sport coat...also a good look, if done right...and it's very functional. Great for typing in cold labs, works for piping too.

If I can find a sport coat equivalent for a kilt jacket, I'll put it on the list...but there is always Matt's offer of the custom cut kilt jacket and vest, and the price is high, but not unreasonable for what you're getting.

Don't let your brain check out just because you're looking at sartorial examples with pants instead of kilts.

Let's imagine one has something like a really unique, "loud," or interesting sporran. Would it be better to build an equally idiosyncratic outfit around it or play it more conservative to let the sporran shine?

It would be better to wear a different sporran.

What about perspective? Is it possible to build an outfit that at a distance would have a standard sort of appearance but up close would reveal a wealth of individualized details?

Definitely! Browse the vendor tents at Highland games for people who hand-make jewelry and socks. You'll need a different set of contacts for pewter, I only know one guy now who does that, and it's Artificer. Talk to leathersmiths and blacksmiths. Search online for shirtmakers, and people who can do embroidery. Don't go overboard like some of the shirts sold at The Buckle...word on the street from the classy girls is those shirts have a high likelihood of making a decent guy look like a douche.

Would it be enough to make one look the same as a rented outfit in a line up but deeply different standing face-to-face and comparing the rental vs. individualist?

Sure. Get a bunch of custom work done, then pull your (white) socks up to your kneecaps, your kilt either down to meet them or up to your quads, make sure your outfit is all one color and preferably black, and you'll have what you describe. The plain fact of the matter is that if you choose to deviate from the majority of rental agencies, you will be showing your individuality...and if you are comparing to the few companies who have diverged from the white hose/white shirt/black kilt/ruche tie/PC mentality, firstly you will both be assumed to own your kit, and secondly the only difference between kits will be the fit as I stated above.

Indeed! Some photos in would certainly help back up the usual supects authoritarian statements and sycophantic agreement!

I agree! You are all perfect gentlemen! Let us engage in a group hug (no homo) because men in kilts are all of the same mind and temper and always all get along no matter what! You all look perfect! Kilt on! Yaay!!1! Kum-bah-yaaaaa my lord, kum-bah-yaaaaa...



That 'bout what you were thinking, Z?

[Bugbear]

... I agree! You are all perfect gentlemen! Let us engage in a group hug (...) because men in kilts are all of the same mind and temper and always all get along no matter what! You all look perfect! Kilt on! Yaay!!1! Kum-bah-yaaaaa my lord, kum-bah-yaaaaa...



That 'bout what you were thinking, Z?

Hmmm.... Really?

I want Nighthawk's opinion.