PV quality

[bear]

Three meters of the 16 ounce wool with a MAXIMUM cost of $50. I can get it elsewhere (as a favor).

Only the 16 ounce.

If it's not available, there's no way in h_ll I want that PV. I'm getting to the point where the kilts are wearing HOLES in the weave... and that's just from normal wear, gentle wash, and hang drying. I've now bought my absolute LAST kilt in that stuff. It has NOTHING to do with Bear's kiltmaking (which is outstanding) but has everything to do with that thin "stuff". I wish we could compromise and find a good 12-13 ounce wool. Atleast I know that it will last longer than two years.

JImmy,
There's PV and then, there's PV.
The PV you ordered for both your kilts is the Canadian tartan quality. It's lighter than the Clan weight PV and, while it has advantages in summer, it's not as durable as the Clan weight PV.
Andrew Breecher has worn a Clan weight PV kilt for the entire Appalachian trail. That's about 2700 miles of rough use in wet, muggy conditions. He won't give it back until he's walked 8000 miles, even though I've offered him a new kilt in return!

My own Canadian tartan kilts have lasted me longer than yours and my Maple Leaf and Cape Breton have been worn and washed a lot!
The Clan weight PV is about double the weight of the Canadian weight PV, or about 12 oz.

Publicly stating that PV doesn't hold up is like saying wool doesn't hold up and you've only worn 8oz wool.
Some of the new guys around here might actually believe you when you say that PV doesn't last, when you're only talking about one light weight of PV. (Even that seems to be lasting me just fine and I machine wash and dry my PV kilts.)

Since you left USA Kilts and decided to start your own wool kiltmaking business this coming December, you've publicly changed your views on kilts 180 degrees.
You've gone from a 'wear what you want' guy to a 'traditionalist, wool only' guy.

Now you are claiming PV doesn't last when it has been shown to be very long lasting. That kind of false statement from a guy who is thought of as respected and knowledgable regarding fabrics and kilts can hurt PV kiltmakers.

I think you are attacking PV to build up the desire for wool kilts. I can see no other explanation for your actions since you left USA Kilts.
All those actions point to your trying to bend the market to the businees you are going to open.

[KiltedBishop]

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Colin]

All I know, is that my Blackwatch PV kilt (same as the Canadian material) is 2 years old, and my MacKenzie and Royal Stewart are a 1-2 years old, and none of them are showing any signs of wear or tear, and I beat the sh!t out of these things regularly. Must be the workmanship.

I won't compare PV to a good wool for duarability, but the stuff does a fine job.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Nope... not gonna make kilts.
Nope... not gonna start a company.
Nope... not changing views on kilts so much as developing a preference.
Nope... not wearing ONLY the Canadian Poly/Vis tartans.
Nope... not treating the PVs any differently than anyone else.

Yes... having serious trouble with the weave wearing thin in the seat and beltline top.
Yes... the pilling is occuring on all PVs.
Yes... except for the new Cape Breton, I'm not wearing them nearly as often any more.
Yes... I have the PVs from 4 different makers.

That's no different than the opinion or OBSERVANCE (in this case) than has been stated on various kilt sites for years from numerous others. Naturally, it gets pummeled by the PV lovers (which is just fine). I've got a problem with what's happening to the MATERIAL (not the kilts) in this case. Don't like that fact? Too bad.

And I'll repeat... it has NOTHING to do with the kiltmaking at all. It has everything to do with the material itself. If it's not tough enough for the wear that I'm putting in to these things, it's not up for debate. Others love it? Great.

Next.

~KB... no problem on this side. Having the material visible to see the problem, and having facts straight on the situation will always clear things up fast. I'm not a person that gets frazzled.

[bear]

Nope... not gonna make kilts.
Nope... not gonna start a company.
Nope... not changing views on kilts so much as developing a preference.
Nope... not wearing ONLY the Canadian Poly/Vis tartans.
Nope... not treating the PVs any differently than anyone else.

Yes... having serious trouble with the weave wearing thin in the seat and beltline top.
Yes... the pilling is occuring on all PVs.
Yes... except for the new Cape Breton, I'm not wearing them nearly as often any more.
Yes... I have the PVs from 4 different makers.

That's no different than the opinion or OBSERVANCE (in this case) than has been stated on various kilt sites for years from numerous others. Naturally, it gets pummeled by the PV lovers (which is just fine). I've got a problem with what's happening to the MATERIAL (not the kilts) in this case. Don't like that fact? Too bad.

And I'll repeat... it has NOTHING to do with the kiltmaking at all. It has everything to do with the material itself. If it's not tough enough for the wear that I'm putting in to these things, it's not up for debate. Others love it? Great.

Next.

If it's not available, there's no way in h_ll I want that PV. I'm getting to the point where the kilts are wearing HOLES in the weave... and that's just from normal wear, gentle wash, and hang drying. I've now bought my absolute LAST kilt in that stuff. It has NOTHING to do with Bear's kiltmaking (which is outstanding) but has everything to do with that thin "stuff". I wish we could compromise and find a good 12-13 ounce wool. Atleast I know that it will last longer than two years.

Without going through past posts and quoting them, you told us in no uncertain terms you were going to start making wool kilts in December. You were training with masters towards that end!

Changing views/developing a preference? Semantics.

You must be doing something different to wear out PV that fast. 2700 miles and the only worn parts of Andrew's kilt was the back belt loop where his backpack rubbed and under his fannypack/sporran.

12 oz wool is the same weight as 12 oz PV. You want 12 wool but not that lightweight PV "stuff?"

I understand you're commenting on the material, though you mentioned me and never buying another PV kilt in the same paragraph.

To be honest Jimmy, your opinions have been all over the map since you started posting. The only constants have been your belief that you are right and your overuse of capitalisation.

I've had to resist posting responses to your posts many times because I didn't want to get into a big tussle. But enough is enough. You have been steering the XMarks community towards traditional wool kilts for some time. This community sees you as a sort of expert, so they heed your words. (Let's face it; you set it up that way.) You are using your "expert" opinion to sway the opinions of others, to steer their buying habits towards wool.
Why? Time will tell. Maybe you'll start making kilts. Maybe you'll join a kiltmaker.

And I'm not for PV over wool. I sell a lot of wool kilts, too. I just won't stand by while part of my business is incorrectly labelled as easily worn.
You wear yours out in a couple of years? I've never heard of that happening before.
I think that if people wore their wool kilts as they wore their PV kilts, there would be a similar amount of wear.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

My, my. We do get personal don't we?

Wow. I wish that I could have gotten this attention when the solid, cotton-blend kilt that I had did a similar thing. Unfortunately, no response came from that kiltmaker. I'm quite sure that I was left with a paper-thin (and fading) kilt because I have alterior motives.

I know people that wouldn't buy a Toyota if it was virtually free. They hate the things and swear that they're unadultrated "cr_p". Car magazines and engineers consistantly berate the things. Yet, I chose to buy one on my own findings.

Critics and Reviewers told me not to go and see "Passion of the Christ"... yet I saw it.

The training in kiltmaking (that I will use to repair authentic kilts strictly for Pipe Bands and philanthropic organizations as a free service) has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the PV is thinning like George Costanzas head. Got a problem with that fact? Than ask Marton Mills why it's happening on an often-worn, Adult Men's kilt with the "Balmoral". I did.

Have a personal problem with me? Need to attack some more? Have fun. I have better things to do than take that kind of insult. If it was deserved, I would acknowledge it. There's no kiltmaker on the grassy knoll.

[Big Paul]

WOW, ant I thought we are one big happy family....

[Dreadbelly]

You two stop fighting. You are traumatizing the children.

Stay together for the kids!

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Paul, we are.

I like Bear. I respect Bear. I own BearKilts.

I'm not saying anything negative about his kilts, his company, or him. He's a good man.

This is about the fact that I've got 5 kilts that are wearing in the material. That's a material thing... not a kilt thing. One of the kiltmakers USED to be on this forum, and has since left. The two others are relatively local to me, but use the same supplier. I asked the supplier what might be happening, and they responded justly.

I'm just not happy about having intentions and character questioned on an open, public forum... especially when it's not called for. I would hope that this is either a mis-read on my part, or an honest mistake on behalf of defending a business.

In any case, my tastes in kilts and the corresponding attire has evolved through time and experience. That's only natural. Would I love to get a BearKilt in wool? Abso-freakin-lutely!

Don't anyone take this for more than it is. The man has a right to question certain things, and deserves answers. Marton Mills, the manufacturers of many of the PV tartans, ALSO deserved the same respect. They answered the questions, addressed the problems and offered (hopeful) solutions.

[cavscout]

I understand your issue with casting a blanket statement over PV material. After seeing this thread I took a closer look at the PV swatches I have (clan and canadian tartens) and saw a noticable difference in thickness and translucence. I could see quite a bit thru the maple leaf tarten. The clan tartens are noticably thicker and I could not see thru them.

This doesn't steer me away from PV but does mean I will probably think twice about a canadian tarten (Drat! I really like that Maple Leaf). Until a better, equally economical material comes up it seems to be the best option. Would acrylic be better or worse than PV?

While I do value the knowledge that Brother Carbomb shares here I also think most members are the type that would do quite a bit of research before makeing the leap from PV to Wool in pursuit of something so cherished.

That same research will also show that the craftsmanship that Bear and the others put out is awesome.

Those who don't do the research would probably be happy in a table cloth and you wouldn't want them wearing your kilt anyway.