Finding a clan badge

[yoippari]

As I have said before my most direct scottish link is my moms family with the name Gibson (Gibbs). I know they were a sept of Buchanan, Campbell, and McDuff at different times. The thing is that I don't want a Buchanan, Campbell, or McDuff clan badge I want a Gibson one. Where do I go to find a slightly obscure clan badge?

[macwilkin]

As I have said before my most direct scottish link is my moms family with the name Gibson (Gibbs). I know they were a sept of Buchanan, Campbell, and McDuff at different times. The thing is that I don't want a Buchanan, Campbell, or McDuff clan badge I want a Gibson one. Where do I go to find a slightly obscure clan badge?

There may not be one. Since Gibson is a surname associated with these larger clans, and is not a full-fledged clan per se without a Chief, there may be no arms that exsist for that Chief of the name, and thereby, no crest (the crest of the Chief's arms is the device that is in the center of the clansman's badge, whilst the "buckle-and-strap" with the motto or slogan denote that the wearer is showing his loyalty to the Chief and clan.) To be quite honest, I've never seen one before, but who knows?

Even if there is a badge, reproducing it could be fairly expensive. And there is nothing wrong with wearing the badge of one of these other clans -- the Buchanans have no Chief at present, I'm not sure about the MacDuffs -- of course, the Campbells have MacCailein Mor, The Chief of the Campbells and the Duke of Argyll.

I hope I haven't confused you with my reply -- Matt, do you have a copy of Mike McLaren's book floating around there?

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I have the Clan Crest book at work, Todd, but I don't have a copy here at the house.

However, one of the companies that I order clan crest badges from produces badges for all of the clans on the Standing Council of Scottish Cheifs as well as all of the Armigerous families of Scotland -- even the obscure ones.

See our gift shop page here:
http://giftshop.scottishtartans.org/crestitems.html

Scroll down to the availability list. Note the "medium pewter" line with the very wide availability. Note also, no Gibson. This means that they are not an Armigerous family.

M

[Cawdorian]

There are some other possibilities, Cap Badges are available with the Thistle, Rampant Lion and St Andrew's Cross symbols, they are available in the medium pewter line Matt mentions. If you wear a district tartan, these are very appropriate.

Jim

[Jimmy Carbomb]

You want a "conversation starter"?

Get you hands on an old amp or guitar, and borrow the "Gibson" badge off of that. A little Gorilla Glue and a pin-back will do the trick.

Come to think of it... that would look pretty daggum cool!8)

[yoippari]

I know that there is a gibson crest somewhere. It has something like geese or some other large bird on it. My mom thinks that it is ugly, but oh well.

It isn't so much as a conversation starter, just that if I get a sporran with a clan badge on it I would want my family's crest on it. It doesn't have to be a mass production one even, if I could find a picture of the crest I know someone who might want to cast it. He is retired and casts rings and other things as a hobbie.

[macwilkin]

I know that there is a gibson crest somewhere. It has something like geese or some other large bird on it. My mom thinks that it is ugly, but oh well.

It isn't so much as a conversation starter, just that if I get a sporran with a clan badge on it I would want my family's crest on it. It doesn't have to be a mass production one even, if I could find a picture of the crest I know someone who might want to cast it. He is retired and casts rings and other things as a hobbie.

Yoippari,

Coats-of-arms belong to individuals, not families (the crest is the very top part of the arms) -- there are many shops and places on-line that sell "family crests" to unsuspecting individuals who do not realize this fact. Chances are they've found an old picture somewhere of arms attributed to someone with that surname, and then sell it as the such-and-such "family crest". Since the United States has no government agency regulating heraldry, these "bucket shops" (as heraldry folks are want to call them) can sell whatever they want. I dealt with this question on a weekly basis when I worked as a genealogical librarian. I was always very mindful to tell the truth, yet not hurt their feelings, as obviously their "family crest" was a source of pride to them.

Bottom line: there's nothing that says you cannot display one of these arms in your home or other places, and even though the US does not have the legal aspects like Scotland, etc., it is still in bad form to claim them as your "family crest". You can certainly display them as the arms of an individual named Gibson, etc., but you wouldn't want to claim them as your own -- think of arms as like a trademark or copyright (not the best comparison, mind you) -- something distinctive of an individual person, etc.

As Cawdorian mentioned, there are "generic" badges with St. Andrew, the Thistle and I have even seen an Irish one with the Harp of Tara on it -- and there is always the aforementioned clans that Gibson is an affiliated name of.

I hope you do not take my message in the wrong way. Let me know if I can be of help in anyway.

Cheers,

Todd

[yoippari]

I'm not entirely sure what the "wrong way" is to take that. It seemed like an informative post just trying to pass along information. ... informative post trying to pass on information... Redundent but I'm sticking with it.

I just did a quick check and changed my serach from gibson (or gibbs) clan crest (or badge) to gibson crest and found something almost instantly.

http://www.allfamilycrests.com/g/gib...-of-arms.shtml
and
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/4crests/giclba.html

So what you are saying is the crest is the surname, a symbol or group of symbols at the top of a coat of arms where the coat of arms is the first name, or individual description? Is this at least close to the coat of arms (which I never really brought up) vs crest? or am I misinterpreting/assuming too much from what you said.

[macwilkin]

I'm not entirely sure what the "wrong way" is to take that. It seemed like an informative post just trying to pass along information. ... informative post trying to pass on information... Redundent but I'm sticking with it.

I just did a quick check and changed my serach from gibson (or gibbs) clan crest (or badge) to gibson crest and found something almost instantly.

http://www.allfamilycrests.com/g/gib...-of-arms.shtml
and
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/4crests/giclba.html

So what you are saying is the crest is the surname, a symbol or group of symbols at the top of a coat of arms where the coat of arms is the first name, or individual description? Is this at least close to the coat of arms (which I never really brought up) vs crest? or am I misinterpreting/assuming too much from what you said.

I was going to try to define crest myself, but the Royal Heraldry Society of Canada has a very nice definition on it's web site:

The term "crest" is commonly used to refer to an entire coat of arms, including the shield. This is incorrect, since the crest is only the object that is placed at the top of the design, above the shield. It represents an identifying device (often a figure or animal) that was worn on the helmet of a knight - it is usually shown in heraldic art as sitting on the top of a stylized helmet. It is sometimes shown by itself, without shield or helmet, as an identifying symbol - likely the reason for the common confusion about its meaning.

-- http://www.heraldry.ca/top_en/top_misconceptions.htm

In Scottish heraldry, the crest of the arms of the chief, circled by the buckle & strap, and with the clan slogan or motto, is the clansman's badge, which identifies the wearer as a supporter of said Chief and member of the clan.

For a full achievement of arms, see:

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/cha-today_e.asp#components (The components of a coat-of-arms, from the Canadian Heraldic Authority)

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I think I recently did a post on this -- search the archives, who knows. But in any case, here goes again....

I think a lot of people get confused when talking about heraldry and the proper useage thereof, because they don't know the terms. So, here's a brief little lesson.

ARMS: Arms are born by an individual person and are meant to reperesent only that individual person. They are a graphic representation of the owner and each one is unique, rather like a medieval social security number. So you would never use or display someone else's arms -- it would be like identity theft. The arms are the graphic design that appear on the sheild itself in most representations, although they don't have to be on a shield -- they can be displayed on a flag, banner, standard, or anything else really.

FULL ACHIEVEMENT: The "classic" way to disply one's arms is in full achievement. When displayed this way, the arms are on a sheild, and there is a helm on top of the sheild, usually with mantling (all that flowing stuff you see to either side) of the livery colors. In addition to this, there may be one or more other elements in the full achievement, depending on the status and rank of the bearer. These include.....

SUPPORTERS: These would be the little critters sometimes seen standing on either side of the shield, often depicted "holidng it up."

MOTTO: Shown on an escroll, this can be above or below the full achievement.

And last but not least....

CREST: This is a single object mounted on top of the helm in the full acheivement of arms. Whereas the arms can be made up of a variety of figures, shapes and graphic elements, the crest is always a single object (or sometimes more than one object that are connected -- such as a hand holding a dagger). The reason is that a crest was originally a three-deminsional sculpted object that was mounted atop actual helms worn in tournaments so that the armoured individual could be identified. Like the arms, this is a personal heraldic device that represents the bearer, and it's use by any other individual is wrong.

However, in Scottish heraldry there has developed the convention of displaying the crest alone (not the full achievement) within a strap and buckle (usually bearing the motto), turning the crest into a badge -- hence the term "clansman's crest badge.)

BADGE: Unlike all of the above, which are personal and individual, a badge is a communal heraldic device. It does not denote "I am this person" but rather "I belong to this person" or "I am loyal to this person." An armiger (one who bears arms) may also have a badge that his servants can wear, or that his propery is marked with. As stated above, in Scotland it has become customary to wear the crest of a clan cheif as a badge, denoting loyalty to the cheif.

So, what if you have a name like "Gibson." Well, you may very well scour the records and find someone whose last name was Gibson who bore arms at some point in Scotland, England, Ireland, etc. And that person may have also born a crest. And you could, I suppose, pay good money for someone to reproduce that crest in the style of a Scottish clan badge. But should you?

Remember, this is not your crest. It is the personal crest of someone else. And who is this other person? He has your same last name, but do we know anything else? Is he even related to you? Does he have descendants who continue to bear his arms today? As I stated, displaying his crest as a badge is meant to denote loyalty to a cheif. Is he your cheif? Are you really giving your loyalty to this individual?

Since Gibson is considered part of clan Buchanan, then that is your clan and if you are going to show loyalty to the clan, you need to display and wear that clan cheif's crest badge. It doesn't matter is his last name is different than yours. (As a side note, Buchanan, I beleive, does not have a cheif at present, so displaying the cheif's crest as a badge would not be a display of loyalty to him as a person, but rather to the position of the chief should it ever be filled, and of course to the clan itself).

Long post, I know -- but I hope it answered some questions.
Aye,
Matt