Brian Barou vs. Prince Charlie

[denmcdough]

OK, I'm Irish, so how many out there are of this Celtic group? And how many of you wear kilts? Also, what's your take on the Prince Charlie jacket vs. the Brian Barou? I've seen plenty of pictures of Irish tartans, but wearing a Prince Charlie. I like them both. Give me your thoughts! Thanks all!

[seanachie]

"OK, I'm Irish, so how many out there are of this Celtic group?" I count myself in this group.
"And how many of you wear kilts?" Again, I am one.

I am a newbie, and like to understand the history and origins of things first. My learning is in progress. Before investing in a Brian Boru or a Kilkenny, I want to better understand the history and whether this is an attempt to woo unsuspecting kilt wearers of Irish ancestry or whether there is some bonafide history behind it. On Sunday I have a formal occassion that I will be wearing a Saffron kilt for, and I purchased a forest green blazer on E-Bay and am having a local seamstress make a kilt jacket for me from that. A smaller investment until I have gotten a better understanding.

[Bugbear]

If I understand correctly, one of the people who helped design the Brian Barou jacket, MacMillan of Rathdown, is also a member of the forum.

Perhaps he could explain the motivation behind the design. That would be interesting.

[davedove]

It seems to me that as far as appearance, the two are pretty similar and can be interchanged at your desire. I have a Brian Boru jacket that I wear for formal events and it works fine.

I couldn't tell you about the history of either jacket. I'm just trying to look presentable, not create a uniform.

[billmcc]

denmcdough,

I am Scots-Irish. The choice between a PC and a Brian Boru is a matter of style and personal preference. I personally don't like either jacket. I prefer a simpler mess style jacket.

seanachie,

As I understand it, the Brian Boru and Kilkenny jackets are a recent development and have no significant history. I don't think offering these jackets is an attempt to fool anyone. Just a desire to give Irish kilt wearers the option of wearing something besides a Scottish style jacket.

[davidlpope]

My understanding is that these kilt jackets are recently and specifically designed for Irish or Welsh kilt wearers as a marketing technique and are not based on any historical Irish or Welsh garments. That makes sense to me, since the kilt was not historically worn by the Irish or the Welsh (except for adoption by some Irish Nationalists and within some Irish military units in the 20th Century).

That being said, the only differences between the Irish "Brian Boru" and "Kilkenny" or the Welsh kilt jackets and Scottish kilt jackets are colors and detailing, such as button placement, etc. In my mind it's a matter of style preference. If you like the arrangement of the buttons on the "Brian Boru" then wear one, I guess. I don't think there's really any meaningful significance beyond that. I can't imagine someone taking the stance that "All Irishmen should wear the Brian Boru jacket with their kilt to proclaim their Irishness", since wearing a kilt, in itself, is a Scottish tradition and not an Irish one.

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

As I understand it, the Brian Boru and Kilkenny jackets are a recent development and have no significant history. I don't think offering these jackets is an attempt to fool anyone. Just a desire to give Irish kilt wearers the option of wearing something besides a Scottish style jacket.

As the designer of both jackets, I can say without fear of contradiction that Bill is right on the money with his assessment. It's my opinion that if an Irish man wishes to wear a kilt, then he should do it as distinctively as possible, rather than looking to all the world like a Scotsman.

[fluter]

If I recall correctly, the PC as we know it evolved around the 1920's. There's not that much history to distinguish between the "recent" PC and the slightly more recent BB. I like MoR's rationale.

In sum, wear what you like! If I wear an Irish-themed kilt, I'll probably stick with the jackets I have; primarily because I have them.

[seanachie]

Thanks for the information here, very interesting.....I had no idea the Prince Charlie was such a recent innovation. I hope I did not take a perjorative tone speaking of marketing. I am a Boston native and know Irish coffee originated in the Parker House Hotel and not in Dublin. .Likewise, I have spent a fair amount of time in Ireland, and have heard Americans mentioning in restaurants there not being corned beef and cabbage on the menu. I only mention this because I did not understand about the jackets and did not want to make an expenditure on a Kilkenny and found I hadn't done my homework and showed ignorance. The Brian Boru and Kilkenny presenting a very attractive option to an Irish themed kilt is a great. I just had very little understanding of the background. Thanks again for sharing.

[OC Richard]

...I had no idea the Prince Charlie was such a recent innovation.

I had suspected as much, though Evening-esque jackets were worn, as we see here, as early as 1860:



About an Irish National Costume, rightly speaking it should be based upon the pre-invasion, ancient Irish costume consisting of leine and brat.
Or, falling short of that, based on the costume worn until fairly recently on that Aran Islands, the tweed trousers, vest, cap, with pampooties and crios (the crios surviving since ancient times).

Anything kilt-based is Highland Scots based, let's face it. Yes I know the Scottish Gaels hailed originally from Ireland, but the kilt developed after the colonisation. Yes there continued to be a certain amount of cultural interchange, but I've yet to see any convincing evidence that the Highland pipes or kilt existed in Ireland before the Revival in the late 19th and early 20th century. (The exception to this is perhaps Highland piping and fiddling being introduced to parts of Northern Ireland by Scots.)