Montrose Doublet

[davidg]

I need some thoughts on wearing a Montrose, which I've just had made for me

I hate anything around my wrists so will probably not wear lace cuffs. For other doublets the advice given is often that lace cuffs are optional, but you never hear that for a Montrose, implying cuffs are compulsory. Any thoughts on that and how much of a fashion faux pas it is not to wear them?

Next, as an ordained cleric I often wear a clerical shirt (usually black) with clerical collar with an Argyll or PC. Many other clerics do something very similar. If I were to wear a clerical collar with a Montrose and add some "tabs" or "bands" at the neck do others, especially other ordained clergy, think that might be acceptable or is it perhaps better to forego the clericals and simply wear the jabot?

For the none ordained a "tab" is often seen on Presbyterean clergy and on barristers (Advocates). They are two vertical bands of stiffened white cotton, about an inch wide by 5 inches long, that replicate the ends of the cravat of old dangling from the neck where they were tied

[McMurdo]

I don't think you need to worry about the cuffs, though I always wear mine they take a bit of getting used too and I've seen many who simply don't bother with them. As for the collar I'm not ordained but my feeling is to stay away from mixing that much and just wear the jabot as it is white tie apparel there are conventions to be met when wearing it. Another consideration is footwear, in my opinion the only footwear for this level of formality is either diced or argyll hose and buckle brouges. Here is a photo from this summer of me in my backyard in my montrose.

[Father Bill]

I have a different, respectful, and differently-based response from our sage McMurdo (and there is no sarcasm in the word "sage" there - just deep respect.) The only reason I might quibble with his excellent suggestion - which in and of itself is an elegant solution - is this: Clerical garb is always correct. The clergy are "consecrated," a word meaning "set apart" from the norm. In effect, we have been made "different" by our ordination I would, therefore, have no problem wearing a clerical collar with a Montrose although it would not be my first choice.

Now... what would I wear to make it work? Well, I'd wear a white clerical shirt with full round collar, long sleeved, with or without frilled cuffs (as McMurdo has suggested) and put my black Roman vest over it. It has the "notched" Roman collar that makes it clear that I am a cleric. Honestly, I would not choose the Montrose to do this, more likely a Prince Charlie. Thus: Roman collar, the elegant black cloth buttons that mark a very conservative vest, and white sleeve cuffs at the end of the jacket sleeve. With a Montrose - modify my thoughts to match your plan.

Is it "correct?" Who knows! There are too few clergy wearing a Montrose to define "correctness" - statistically an insufficient sample. It is a matter of looking "good" more than "correct" and wearing the symbols you want in such a way that they do not clash too horribly. Has it ever been worn thus by clergy? Oh probably someone somewhere somehow by somebody, but again the statistical sample is likely too small to make any kind of inference from it.

What it does accomplish, is to meld the two, as the OP has inferred that he would like to do, giving him the clerical collar, a vest, and white cuffs (frilled or not at his discretion.)

What says the Rabble?

[McMurdo]

Interesting points Father Bill. I see what you are saying. You know after I posted I thought I might be being to hash about the collar. If the OP could post a photo in the montrose with the collar, perhaps that would change my view. However I do agree the montrose would not work with the waistcoat, perhaps a regulation Doublet would be just the ticket for such an outfit as it to my mind looks infinitely better than the Prince Charlie coatee

[Father Bill]

Yes - I would like the doublet very much. It's all an interesting challenge if for no other reason than what we're probably really being asked is "What would look normal" in a situation that simply isn't the norm.

I usually use that combination with a black Barathea Argyle, simply because I wouldn't want my status as clergy to clash with something very "gussy" or even somewhat militaristic.

Myenhh!

[flyrod6057]

I usually use that combination with a black Barathea Argyle, simply because I wouldn't want my status as clergy to clash with something very "gussy" or even somewhat militaristic.

Father Bill's got a good point here. The Montrose with a clerical collar would be pretty sharp, but would look quite a bit like a Marine Corps officer's dress jacket. I doubt anyone would mistake one for the other, but the "look" would be similar. Just something to be aware of.

The retired Marine in me would actually like to see the combination!

[MacRobert's Reply]

The Montrose doublet without a jabot or cravat certainly has a very clerical appearance at the neck. However, it also has a seam at the front that would normally be hidden by the jabot or cravat. Preaching bands (tabs) would not do this. Furthermore, the style of the Montrose pre-dates the current versions of the clerical collar and preaching bands that both developed from the white cravat. My advice, as a kilt-wearing clergyman, is to wear your Montrose doublet with a jabot or a white lace-trimmed cravat. To be more conservative the white cravat could be without lace. Various moderators of the Kirk have favoured lace jabots with their clerical collars and 18 Century-style jackets so there may be some danger of being mistaken for a moderator.

I have worn a Montrose in the past with French rather than lace cuffs and often wear a Sheriffmuir doublet with French rather than lace cuffs (especially if soup is on the menu!)

Modern clerical collars work perfectly well with Argyle jackets, PCs, regulation and Sheriffmuir doublets IMHO.

[MacRobert's Reply]

Chap on the left is a Kirk moderator with clerical collar and lace jabot and cuffs!

[Father Bill]

You know - a very important question totally escaped me: Does your denomination have any requirements that will be part of your planning?

[davidg]

Chap on the left is a Kirk moderator with clerical collar and lace jabot and cuffs!

Interestingly though his jabot is styled somewhat differently and allows the collar to be visible. This is also similar to Episcopal dress but I believe in both instances frock coats are worn with knee breeches. It is, however, not a style of jacket that could really be worn with a kilt (IMHO)

My Montrose has a centre front seam, not just a dart at the top, so that does not pose any problem as such about the dart being visible without a jabot and as for militaristic consider the British Army Chaplains who, with full mess dress, wear a clerical collar! (Incidentally, I am a British Legion Chaplain so looking military at some events is not necessarily a problem either)

Excuse the hasty picture but this is what it would look like