A Question for the Experts: What are your favorite old setts?

[KD Burke]

Recently, comments from figheadair and others have aroused my curiosity regarding really old tartans. I'm sure that there are many old, forgotten setts which haven't been woven in living memory, buth which exist as images labelled as "Unknown Scarlett #14" or similar in the STA or SRT archives.

So, Experts! Enlighten us rabble! What old tartans deserve more interest? Which are esthetically pleasing? Historically significant?

You get the idea. If it's old, and you think it's nifty, tell us about it!

[artificer]

Well, I'm no expert, but one of my favorites has to be the Old Culloden Tartan.

[KD Burke]

Scott, you are no doubt an expert on your own opinions!

Old Culloden, especally figheadair's recent recreation is a fine looking tartan!

[Jock Scot]

On reflection, post deleted.

[creagdhubh]

Greetings,

There's a bit (approximately the size of a modern day swatch of tartan) of old tartan known amongst the Clan Macpherson as the Macpherson Crubin plaid, and can be considered a very important sett - both historically and aesthetically. It is said that a piece of this particular tartan was found inside an old wooden trunk by a Macpherson (of Crubin) woman assisting in the clearing out of black house located in Crubin, Inverness-shire (in lower Badenoch near Dalwhinnie), during the 18th-century, and at that time, it was obvious to her that the piece of tartan was already quite old.

The Macpherson Crubin plaid may have influenced the development of several tartan setts, to include the following tartans we see today: Caldeonian, Kidd, the Macpherson (Clan) tartans, Mackintosh (Chief), and the Chattan (Clan) tartans. The preceding setts are fairly similiar to that of the Macpherson Crubin plaid, and the modern day colouring of the so-called, 'Macpherson of Crubin' tartan, are indeed a close match to the colouring of the Clan Chattan tartan.

I am unsure if an actual photograph of the Macpherson Crubin plaid, of which I am referring to, (there is indeed a variant of the Macpherson Crubin plaid on display in the West Highland Museum located at Fort William - more than likely woven by Wilson's of Bannockburn) exisits somewhere, or whether or not the actual bit of hard tartan, found so many years ago, has survived to this day. The Macpherson Crubin plaid is not a part of the permanent collection at the Clan Macpherson Museum and House in Newtonmore, Inverness-shire, and Clan Macpherson historians are unsure what happened to the bit of tartan, and furthermore, have drawn no conclusions. What we do know, is that the only shroud of evidence that the Macpherson Crubin plaid ever existed, is through simple, written and spoken word amongst the Clan Macpherson throughout the generations.

'Macpherson Crubin Plaid'


http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart...n-crubin-plaid

Cheers,

[xman]

Please excuse me adding my opinion to that of the experts, but I think MacDonald of Kingsburg is smashing.

[figheadair]

For me, a bit (approximately the size of a moderns day swatch of tartan) of old tartan known amongst the Clan Macpherson as the Macpherson Crubin plaid, is a very important sett - both historically and aesthetically. It is said that a piece of this particular tartan was found inside an old wooden trunk by a Macpherson woman assisting in the clearing out of black house located in Crubin, Inverness-shire (in lower Badenoch near Dalwhinnie), during the mid to late 18th-century, and at that time, it was obvious to her that the piece of tartan was already quite old.

I am unsure if an actual photograph of the Macpherson Crubin plaid exisits somewhere, or whether or not the actual bit of hard tartan, found so many years ago, has survived to this day. The Macpherson Crubin plaid is not a part of the permanent collection at the Clan Macpherson Museum and House in Newtonmore, Inverness-shire, and Clan Macpherson historians are unsure what happened to the bit of tartan, and furthermore, have drawn no conclusions. What we do know, is that the only shroud of evidence that the Macpherson Crubin plaid ever existed, is through simple, written and spoken word amongst the Clan Macpherson throughout the generations. Perhaps that is all one really needs.

Oh it does exist - look!



However, notwithstanding the label, nor the claims elsewhere, this is not an early C18th piece but rather a piece of Wilsons' cloth 1790-c1800 and is listed in their 1819 Key Pattern Book as MacKintosh. The label's reference to King George IV wearing this is also incorrect and both are examples of family traditions being attached to artefacts, portraits etc which are later taken as 'fact'.

This sample is in the West Highland Museum at Fort William and I have no doubt that it is the piece that later authors, DC Stewart and James Scarlett cite as the Crubin Plaid. DC Stewart apparently examined it in 1947 but clearly missed the fact that there are both wool and silk yellow stripes in the specimen, something never found in truly old pieces but often seen in early Wilson setts and in this case actually specified in their 1819.

So, I'm afraid that whilst it may be a very attractive old tartan, it does not meet the criterion of the OP.

[figheadair]

Please excuse me adding my opinion to that of the experts, but I think MacDonald of Kingsburg is smashing.

Indeed although I much prefer the orginal colours and setting - http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/Mac...Kingsburgh.pdf

[figheadair]

Recently, comments from figheadair and others have aroused my curiosity regarding really old tartans. I'm sure that there are many old, forgotten setts which haven't been woven in living memory, buth which exist as images labelled as "Unknown Scarlett #14" or similar in the STA or SRT archives.

So, Experts! Enlighten us rabble! What old tartans deserve more interest? Which are esthetically pleasing? Historically significant?

You get the idea. If it's old, and you think it's nifty, tell us about it!

I think you need to qualify old, forgotten setts which haven't been woven in living memory. That could mean anything before 1900, 1850, 1800, 1750 etc. I suggest pre-c1770 and the early industrialisation of tartan.

Oh dear. Where to start? There are so many. Unfortunately many of the graphics on the STA SRT sites etc are a poor interpretation of the originals which is why I've been running the Tartan of the Month for the past year. Not only is the aim to encourage others to look, learn and get into research but it also offers the opportunity.

I'd agree with Artificer about the Culloden (Coat) but also love the plaid from Culloden - http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/Pla...m_Culloden.pdf. Much depends on how one imagines using the tartan.

[creagdhubh]

Oh it does exist - look!



However, notwithstanding the label, nor the claims elsewhere, this is not an early C18th piece but rather a piece of Wilsons' cloth 1790-c1800 and is listed in their 1819 Key Pattern Book as MacKintosh. The label's reference to King George IV wearing this is also incorrect and both are examples of family traditions being attached to artefacts, portraits etc which are later taken as 'fact'.

This sample is in the West Highland Museum at Fort William and I have no doubt that it is the piece that later authors, DC Stewart and James Scarlett cite as the Crubin Plaid. DC Stewart apparently examined it in 1947 but clearly missed the fact that there are both wool and silk yellow stripes in the specimen, something never found in truly old pieces but often seen in early Wilson setts and in this case actually specified in their 1819.

So, I'm afraid that whilst it may be a very attractive old tartan, it does not meet the criterion of the OP.

Thanks Peter!

I have seen this particular sample (in person I might add) of the 'Crubin Plaid' before, however, this is not what I am referring to. The version that is discussed most amongst Macphersons and Clan Macpherson historians, is a bit of hard tartan apparently woven sometime during the 18th-century (maybe earlier), and discovered in the 18th-century. The sample shown above is more than likely a variant of what was originally discovered in Badenoch. Naturally, since the tartan 'craze' was on, Wilson's took it from there, and of course much later, DC Stewart and James Scarlett added their assumptions of the cloth.

Bottom line, to us Macphersons, we definitively believe that an early 18th-century (or maybe earlier) piece of tartan cloth, now cited as the 'Macpherson Crubin plaid,' indeed existed, BUT, naturally, we have no concrete evidence of such a cloth - ONLY a written and spoken account passed down within the Clan Macpherson; specifically through the cadet branch of Slioch'd Gillosa, also referred to as the Macphersons of Invereshie.

I have edited my original post to reflect that there is indeed a later reproduction, in my opinion, of the original 'Macpherson Crubin plaid,' on display in the West Highland Museum at Fort William - I completely forgot about this, as I was last there in 2008.

Cheers,