Is this who we are? If so, shame on us.

[gwynng]

I was reading through a recent thread where a gentleman asked WHAT would be appropriate to wear with his kilt to a specific occasion. He had questions regarding things such as accessories and the formality of what he should wear. Immediately (like as in the first post) the thread declined into the appropriateness or inappropriateness of a man wearing a kilt to the event and focused on a heated and mean spirited debate on Scottish-ness, national dress and from my point of view, some fairly ugly opinions regarding "who-gets-to-wear-what-and-when-according-to-the-great-and-glorious-me". It even has gotten to the point of questioning his right to play the role at the event. Who the hell are we to question that. For all we know, he could be the PM. All in all, I was pretty shocked at the way this gentleman was treated by our "rabble". And please keep in mind that he has been on X-Marks for a WHOLE FIVE DAYS!

I sent him a PM of support and encouragement. He had the courtesy to reply, but has decided that X-Marks is peopled by bullies who want to pick fights with the new guy and wants off X-Marks. I don't think that I or anyone can convince him otherwise. He told me he has found another forum.

It really saddens me to see us do this to a new member. We were all new at some point. Think about it. This isn't the first time that any of us has asked a simple question or seen a post get blown out of all proportion with some fairly ugly opinions get spouted about as if they were gospel.

I thought this forum was about a brotherhood. A brotherhood who encouraged one another to dress out of the box, to be different, to be adventurous, to have a laugh, to try making something from scratch, to throw heavy rocks and telephone poles, to share experience and wisdom, to be MORE. Not bash the new guy (or anyone) who asks a simple question and is rewarded by a handful of guys jump down is friggin' throat. (And yes, you know who you are out there.)

I know this post is going to be unpopular and meet with some fairly defensive rebuttals. So be it. But if this is who we have become, shame on us.

sincerely,
Gwynn

[Jock Scot]

Indeed the whole affair was unfortunate and I am sure that we all agree that it would have been better all round if it had not happened. However the fellow in question, unwittingly I believe, chose to phrase part of his question in an inflamitary way and you sir must not forget that. He chose his own words in his own way, so he must bare the sole responsibility for what happened afterwards.I do absolutely take full responsibility for what I said in reply and make no apology for it. A swift apology of a sort from him as soon as he was back on line and realised what his words had done did end the matter there and then, as we are a forgiving group and the follow up posts immediately after his "not looking for a fight" post demonstrates that perfectly. I do accept that the conversation did rumble on a tad afterwards over connected issues, but that is the way of things it seems with all threads here. Speaking for myself I would much prefer to discuss the finer points of kilt attire, however and make no mistake here, should anyone say words in a similar way again, then they will get the same response from me and no doubt other Scots too.

[guardsman]

I agree with this post , over a memorial ceremony, very disagreeable and troublesome. The kilt cops out in force I believe . Shame on us all ,

[Downunder Kilt]

From your jibbing and over simplification of the issue I will obviously put my hand up as one of the persons you were pointing at. I still stand by everything I said and if you care to read my posts in their entirety, it is obvious the question I asked and that the point I was trying to make was whether a person representing Canada on an official level at a national event should wear the National dress of another country In this case the kilt. Many others jumped in referring to the Maple leaf tartan a being duly authorised by the government and that the kilt in Canada has much Scottish heritage and it is the right of anyone to wear the kilt. Which is true for a person representing themself or a Scottish organisation.
This gentleman was a representative of Canada and all its peoples. From my point of view I cannot see any of my posts saying that a Canadian citizen should not wear the kilt as they wish, just at certain times it is inappropriate, and wearing one while officially representing all of Canada at a remembrance day memorial is one of those times. Protocol does not always match our own wants and wishes.

I am sorry that the gentleman thinks that he was being picked on and it has been discussed in other threads as to whether members want truthful opinions or opinions that just tally with their own.

[pbutts]

The interaction of questions and answers on an Internet bulletin board like this involves a certain level of trust and respect. We can never really know what lies behind a question, all we can do is share information, sometimes opinions (if asked), and assume that the user will appreciate the help.

If I had been on earlier today, my thought would have been to refer the OP to Jamie and Glen's classic 1 Kilt 10 Looks : A Visual Guide to Formality in Highland Attire

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-attire-46888/

That would have answered the question.

[The Wizard of BC]

Thank you Gwynn for posting this. I often find it difficult to say what I really feel because of my position. So I bite my tongue and swear under my breath.

I too found some comments in the thread troubling. Frankly some of our members were downright rude.

As a true hyphenated citizen (I hold both American and Canadian passports) I can tell those who went off on a tangent that a Canadian is fully within his rights to wear the kilt while representing Canada. Here in BC our Lieutenant Governor would often wear his Maple Leaf kilt to official functions and would often greet visiting dignitaries in kilt. He was a Canadian of Scottish and First Peoples heritage representing Canada and The Queen.

We had a Premier who, as a Campbell, wore his British Columbia Tartan kilt with pride.

The Mayor of Victoria wears his kilt often in Council chambers and at official dinners and functions. His chain of office goes quite well with his Victoria, City of Gardens Tartan. He even greeted HRH Prince Andrew wearing his kilt.

Anyone who does not recognize that the kilt and our official Tartans are very much a part of the Canadian National heritage knows little of what or who Canadians are.

The Scots did not invent Tartan. The kilt as we know it today was probably not invented in Scotland.

In fact, given that so few Scots actually wear the kilt, it is more likely that the wider world sees the kilt and Tartan through the eyes of American 'Brigadoonary' more than they do as a Scottish national symbol.

If one of our more strident or parochial members were to accuse me, as an American, of "Playing at being a Scot" because I wore a kilt, I could probably see their point. I would venture to say that most Americans do not think of themselves as hyphenated Americans. And many Americans who see their fellow countrymen dressing up in the manner of an ancestor three or four generations removed, view it as costume, make-believe, and/or 'putting on airs'.


To a Canadian however the Maple Leaf Tartan is one of our officially recognized symbols along with the Maple Leaf itself and the Beaver. Canadians truly celebrate that they are from somewhere else. Everyone is a hyphenated Canadian. Even many of our First Peoples.

In Canada I do not wear the kilt to play at being a Scot. I wear the kilt because "Ï am Canadian".



To our new member, I welcome you, and I apologize on behalf of the majority of the forum for the way you were greeted.

[TheOfficialBren]

Plus one. I apologise, as well, if I contributed to any of the conflagration.

It was out-of-line on all sides and should never have happened. Shame on all of us. Period.

[Jock Scot]

Not one of us Steve have said, even me these days, that Canadians cannot wear the kilt and if you think that we are then you too are missing the fundamental Scottish point. That is that they(the Scots) consider, still, that kilt is Scottish national attire and no one else's and whilst that may seem rather pedantic and certainly inconveniant to those outwith Scotland in these modern times, nevertheless it is how I and certainly others that contributed in that thread think and their posts confirm it. So is it just a few fuddy duddy Scots , plus some non -Scots let us not forget, that object to the Scots national attire being dismissed? Hijacked? Misused? Well think that if you like, but I am confidant enough to venture to suggest that most Scots would react just as I did. It is no good saying, as the Canadians appear to do, well we do things this way and we have laws that allow us to do things that way and so on and so forth, that is fine for Canada and good for them! But Scotland is not Canada and rightly or wrongly we do things our way and think our way and it is patently obvious that the two ways differ in some respects quite markedly.

I am afraid we don't live in Utopia, so this inconviniant possiveness is far from helpful in the smooth running of an international website such as this and I can clearly see that. But sweeping it under the carpet, turning a blind eye, sticking ones head in the sand , demanding even, call it what you will, will not change attitudes one bit, however much those outwith Scotland may wish for it . Time might, even probably will change attitudes, but for here and now, sadly for most non-Scots, it has not.

I do not think that there is a quick fix here, but I do believe that realistic straight talking is a start, combined with a recognition that sensitivities do exist and in the kilt context, I think those in Scotland have moved considerably in attitude from the one I grew up with. But certainly we have ALL hit the buffers----and we have--- when it comes to the kilt and Scots national attire and wishing otherwise is not realistic, or helpful.

[Zardoz]

Like Gwynng, I think it's a shame that many new people to the forum seem to get scared off by the heavy handed didactics of a few members. It really wasn't always like that, this used to be a place that tried to encourage kilt wearing, not limit it.
I had to go find the thread in question, thinking it would be one of the "should I wear a kilt to X event" threads, were more often than not the usual suspects here on the kilt forum will be quick to explain why the guy should never wear a kilt to such an event... But all this poor guy wanted was opinion what jacket would be better.

[CMcG]

Here is a link to the other thread, in case anyone has trouble finding it:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ccasion-80456/