Does a difference in mills affect the kilt?

[Karl R]

Just to be clear, this is not a question about color.

I just received three swatches that I ordered (three different tartans). Each swatch is from the the mill that would ultimately make the cloth for the kilt ... if I choose that particular tartan. Coincidentally, they are from three different mills.

However, I noticed that each of the swatches has a slightly different feel to it. (They're all 16 weight pure new wool). And that made me wonder whether the cloth from different mills results in a discernable difference in the kilt construction? How it lays? How it swishes? How it holds a pleat? (Other than the slight but obvious differences in texture.)

For reference, the mills are House of Edgar, Batley, and Locharron.

[ShaunMaxwell]

[QUOTE=However, I noticed that each of the swatches has a slightly different feel to it. (They're all 16 weight pure new wool). And that made me wonder whether the cloth from different mills results in a discernable difference in the kilt construction? How it lays? How it swishes? How it holds a pleat? (Other than the slight but obvious differences in texture.)

For reference, the mills are House of Edgar, Batli, and Locharron.[/QUOTE]

All but one of my kilts are 16 oz. wool (the other is 13 oz., because that's the only weight the tartan is available in...), from Locharron, Marton Mills and D.C. Dalgliesh. There's a difference in the hand (or, the way they feel) between each mill. Personally, I'm partial to the Marton Mills fabric (and love the fact that it's teflon coated), but I don't think you'd notice much difference in the way the fabric lays, swishes or holds a pleat that's down to the fabric. Those variables would more likely be influenced by the construction of the kilt. So a 5-yard 16 oz. kilt isn't going to have nearly the swing of an 8-yard 16 oz. kilt. Nor would a low-yardage box pleat kilt.

Other variables could come into play as well. I have one kilt made from a tartan with a large sett size. It's pleated to the alternating stripe and consequently has very deep pleats. It's the heaviest of my kilts, but doesn't swing as well a couple of others (including the 13 oz. kilt) that have shallower pleats — one to the sett and the other to the stripe. So the sett of the tartan and how you choose to have it pleated may have some effect on the "swing" of the garment as well.

I'll be following this thread to see responses from the kiltmakers in the group!

Cheers,

SM

[figheadair]

For ease of comparison, let's assume that each of the mills is using the same yarn, then whilst individual looms will have their own signature style, it is more to do with the finishing process. In the past couple of years I've noticed a change in the finish of Elliot's cloth which is now flatter and smoother. The loom s are the same so it must be something to do with the finishing. Personally I prefer the older handle and have raised this with them in the hope that we can go back to what, IMO, was a better cloth.

So far as you choice is concerned, I know nothing about Batley's cloth and have never knowongly seem it. For me the starting point would be, does the cloth have a selvedge as opposed to a tuck-edge.

[The Wizard of BC]

Let's talk selvedge for a moment as it was brought up.

Some mills with the older looms produce a true selvedge and the mills with rapier looms produce a tuck selvedge.

For example - House Of Edgar can produce a true kilt selvedge as can Andrew Elliot. The mills with more modern looms such as Lochcarron and Marton Mills produce a tuck selvedge.

The newer looms can have a tighter tension on the warp and weft yarns, so in very general terms, the more modern rapier looms produce a straighter selvedge than the older shuttle looms with a looser tension.



Then there is the hand or feel of the fabric which is very variable between fabrics and can be due to a lot of different things.

The yarn is one variable. What type of sheep? The tightness or looseness of the twist. Even a different color on the same base yarn can cause a different feel to the fabric.

The type of loom can cause differences. In general - older shuttle looms produce a looser weave and modern rapier looms produce a tighter weave. This is usually due to the tension that the modern looms can exert on the warp and weft.

How hard the loom beats the yarns each time, condensing the yarns tighter, can have a huge difference in the hand of the fabric.

The type of Twill can cause huge differences but this can usually be put aside as the majority of kilt fabric is woven as a 2x2 Twill.

But, the finishing of the fabric after it is woven has perhaps the most effect on the finished feel of the fabric in your hand.
Very few weaving mills finish the fabric they weave. Most send their fabric out to a different company for finishing.
The process of finishing fabric is a art all of its own. The machines, the chemicals, the processes the fabric is put through all effect the final product.


So, yes, each mill will have a different and unique feel in your hand. Some will feel more flexible and some less. Some will feel smoother and some more 'pebbly' on the surface.
Some will have a softer, brushed feel and some not.

It all comes down to the kiltmakers preference.

How does the fabric feel, take and hold a crease, the selvedge, and the 'suppleness' of the swish are all things that a kiltmaker looks for in a fabric.

I personally prefer Marton Mills fabric over any other. Other kiltmakers have a preference for different mills. And that is what makes one kilt totally different from another.

I prefer a dead straight selvedge but will accept a tuck selvedge to get straight.

I also prefer a fabric which will crease razor sharp and hold a crease for a longer time. (just a note - Merino wool, while prized for the fineness of the individual strands, does not seem to me to hold a crease as well as some other wool breeds.)

I also prefer a fabric with a slightly softer, brushed surface over a harder or more pebbly surface.

[Tarheel]

I think Shaun would be correct that the construction of the kilt (small variables in cloth a given by your description) will negate those differences when it comes to swish, pressing of pleats and holding of the edges. Pick the cloth that you like for cost, color (sharpness or shade if very different) and texture of the fabric. I think you will be fine if you get a kiltmaker that works closely with you on the construction (dimensions to fit you body, etc.)

The Wiz knows all.

[Taskr]

I've two HoE kilts and one Locharron, all 16oz. I don't perceive any noticeable difference in swish or sway. No issues with the pleats on any of them. I agree with other comments that the movement of the kilt and crispness of the pleat will be influenced by the construction.

[Manu]

In my case, i own a 16oz Marton Mills and a 13oz HoE. The HoE has a much softer feeling and does swish better than the Marton Mills. It is also a little less scratchy. Although i do love the heaviness of the Marton mills.

[huntgathergrow]

I've gotten samples from Locharron and HoE as well. I like Lochcarron's better, but I believe it has a tuck selvedge and small holes all along the edge. Similarly, my PV kilts have the same type selvedge. I really dislike the little holes. Is this indicative of modern looms or do the classic shuttle looms produce the same selvedge?

[figheadair]

I've gotten samples from Locharron and HoE as well. I like Lochcarron's better, but I believe it has a tuck selvedge and small holes all along the edge. Similarly, my PV kilts have the same type selvedge. I really dislike the little holes. Is this indicative of modern looms or do the classic shuttle looms produce the same selvedge?

As a hand-loom weaver I don't regard a tuck-edge as a selvedge and prefer to see it described for what it is. Now I'll get off my soap-box.

The small holes sound like cloth that has been woven with some form of tenter (tenterhook) to keep the cloth from pulling in during the weaving process. Most power looms have some form of automatic tenter and I've certainly seen similar holes on cloth with a selvedge woven on an older type of loom. Some hand-weavers also use a tenter, personally I've never found the need and can maintain the width and selvedge without one.

[Tobus]

figheadair is, of course, correct. As an example, here is some of DC Dalgliesh's cloth woven with a traditional kilting selvedge on an older loom. But it has tenterhook holes just inboard the selvedge.