fleurdelis.com?

[Father Bill]

Thanks Chas, I'm not sure really...I may have to do a brief read on the Wiki about it. I have a preconcieved idea in my head that Heraldry was/is some people saying they are empowered or something and the CoA's being their advertising logo but I'll probably get a better understanding when I do a Wiki later.

It is indeed all that, but within a very specific, traditional & precise set of guidelines. Good luck with it!

[TenorClef]

Interesting, can't speak for Heraldry but as a Jazz Musician, rules are there to be bent or flouted or even broken in order to create something totally new and fresh. I figure everyone can have their own unique logo or CoA's if they so wish. When you read about Nobility certainly historically I don't see very noble behaviour but good manners, kindness and morality is something all have the right to aspire to. One mans CoA's is another mans tattoo I suppose. I'm speaking as a peasant rather than a noble :-)

[Father Bill]

Yeah... it does sound a little "peasantish."

I guess that coats of arms are a traditional form of identification which (logically enough) has traditional identifiers used within them. For that reason, I'd strongly encourage you, if you want to have modern identifiers, to use them in another form rather than erode the historical limitations that make a coat of arms what it is.

There are no rules once you leave the room, but within it, there are traditions that have been historically useful, and I mourn when I see them become less useful through encroachment by other art forms.

To use your analogy - probably poorly, since I know little of the realm of music - symphonies don't become less of a symphony when you write jazz in its own and beautiful form (which incidentally is my preferred musical form), only when you bend the definition of what is and is not symphonic.

[TenorClef]

Yeah... it does sound a little "peasantish."

I guess that coats of arms are a traditional form of identification which (logically enough) has traditional identifiers used within them. For that reason, I'd strongly encourage you, if you want to have modern identifiers, to use them in another form rather than erode the historical limitations that make a coat of arms what it is.

There are no rules once you leave the room, but within it, there are traditions that have been historically useful, and I mourn when I see them become less useful through encroachment by other art forms.

To use your analogy - probably poorly, since I know little of the realm of music - symphonies don't become less of a symphony when you write jazz in its own and beautiful form (which incidentally is my preferred musical form), only when you bend the definition of what is and is not symphonic.

You say traditional form of identification but as I understand it in fact any one can have a CoA's even us lowly Serfs & Peasants......well as far as I can see any one can apply for a CoA's (that's not to say an official body would authorize one). Also here in the UK they cost an arm & a leg, probably a kidney too. So I guess Joe Serf need not apply any way. Suddenly it starts to feel a bit elitist. I suppose that is what I like about you Americans you circumvent the rules and say 'who is this or that person to say you can and but you can't'. Living in the real world though its all nonsense, power is power and a decent honourable human being can be the most noble without all this pomp and ceremony. However if some guy wants to have a logo in the form of a CoA's I reckon good luck to him. Each to his own and all that.

[tripleblessed]

Interesting, can't speak for Heraldry but as a Jazz Musician, rules are there to be bent or flouted or even broken in order to create something totally new and fresh. I figure everyone can have their own unique logo or CoA's if they so wish. When you read about Nobility certainly historically I don't see very noble behaviour but good manners, kindness and morality is something all have the right to aspire to. One mans CoA's is another mans tattoo I suppose. I'm speaking as a peasant rather than a noble :-)

As a lifelong and habitual (though not addicted) iconoclast, I may seem the inappropriate observer, but it never... well, rarely, has stopped me before. Musicians of all stripes break the rules regularly, but it is the inspiration in the moment that makes it music. Should one make the choice of breaking all the rules in one measure, or even phrase, it ceases to be music and becomes just so much noise. This is what you describe with fez, camels, etc. Can there be non-standard elements? Of course. Within a recognizable framework. Making music is noble, even spiritual work; serious work, even when the result is lighthearted fluff. Or parody. Making trash music demeans the performer, and reveals a lack of class. As you noted, many so-called nobles were consistently ignoble. That speaks to them individually. Many serfs and peasants had more class in their little fingers. The most dignified and weighty personage I have ever met was an old black gardener I knew as a child. Many nobles, though, were just that. Noble. Not perfect, but striving for better.

A man's coat of arms is a statement both of identification and aspirations. It doesn't say "Hey, look at me, I'm better than you", or "Look, I can be a jerk". It says who he is and what he stands for, who he wants to be in the dark when no one is looking. Sure, he may fall short, but he tries. What you describe is like the wedding pictures with one partner smashing the cake into the spouse's face. It may seem hilarious at 21, but at 61 and looking back, it's just sad, and immature, and embarrassing, and disrespectful.

Can you have a coat of arms? Yes. Most definitely. If you want it, go for it. But do it right. It is forever you. It needs some gravity, and some knowledge, both of the subject, and of yourself. I wager you have in you all that's needed for a wonderful and accurately descriptive coat of arms, and I hope you enjoy the process and the end result. It's said there are no foolish questions in the process of education; one must, after all, get from where one is to a more informed level. I would submit for your consideration it will want more than a little perusal of the Wiki. Much there MAY be accurate, but frequently is on the level of the equating of logos and coats of arms. Apples and oranges, cats and dogs, tigers and lambs. Some common elements, but different things altogether. A logo does include symbolism, it does hope to bring up identifying pictures or memories, but it is designed to control you. To get you to spend your money. A coat of arms isn't selling or shilling. It says I am. I stand in the fray, life comes at me, I do the best I can to meet its travails.

Here at Xmarks, we dress in many styles; we have varied points of view. We attempt to keep disagreements civil. As a group I think it's safe to say we tend to agree a chip on the shoulder is not an attractive accessory. Any man of character and, regretfully, at least some substance may have a registered coat of arms. As Chas notes, anyone may design his own, and knowledgeable, like-minded gents will offer assistance, some even at no charge. Feel free to jump into the fray.

And feel welcome here. We don't require money, or knowledge, or even class. Just a desire for community.

[TenorClef]

tripleblessed....many thanks for your considered tome. Having looked a little bit more into these CoA's I think if I was to design one I'd probably tone it down some to work within the parameters of established heraldry. After all I think it was Duke Ellington who said their is only two types of music....good and bad. Also Count Basie 'less is more'. I'm sure there's many a person who got a tattoo in their youth who'd probably prefer not to have it now. So I take all your points on and board and thank all of you as a newbie to your community for your warm welcome.

[TenorClef]

Well this evening to my surprise I've discovered the Lord Lyon has issued some very quirky CoA's. Hahaha and one even had a fez! Well well indeed!

[TheOfficialBren]

As a creative type (musician, mostly rock/metal/symphonic fusion) who is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum (I MUCH, MUCH prefer formality over the excessively casual) from TripleBlessed I actually agree with him pretty much on the whole.

As Father Bill has pointed out traditions mean something. We must not lose all and sundry of the past to our excessively rebellious desire for erroneous and flippant non-conformity.

It is an odd duck I understand--the abstractly creative individual who disdains free-spirited nonchalance--but when it comes to traditions and historical precedent some of us take that sort of thing very seriously.

Being human engenders fallibility by its very nature and at the outset.

We've got a few Norman knights and a Scottish laird or two clanking about in the old family attic somewhere but I am not a noble and am under absolutely no delusions about the thimble-full of dilluted noble blood in my veins. I don't wear my ancestors as a brand logo. I take personal pride in them but I'm my own man and aspire to just be a decent human being. I'll let the future judge me and my actions.

[TenorClef]

I decided to commission fleurdelis.com with a CoA's project. I was rather impressed with their level of knowledge and detailing on their web site. It is streets ahead of the 'bucket shop' style CoA's you see on various web sites. Lots of room for personalisation. Friendly advice and tips on how to keep a personalised CoA's within the scope of tradition. I've gone for quite a traditional design, motto, crest, torse, mantling, shield, supporters with aspects relevant to my life. I decided on a medieval sackbut emblem (forerunner of the trombone) its shaping up nicely.


On another subject got this cool sporran chain today.

[Chas]

I decided to commission fleurdelis.com with a CoA's project. I was rather impressed with their level of knowledge and detailing on their web site. It is streets ahead of the 'bucket shop' style CoA's you see on various web sites. Lots of room for personalisation. Friendly advice and tips on how to keep a personalised CoA's within the scope of tradition. I've gone for quite a traditional design, motto, crest, torse, mantling, shield, supporters with aspects relevant to my life. I decided on a medieval sackbut emblem (forerunner of the trombone) its shaping up nicely.

It gives me no pleasure to tell you that fleurdelis.com IS a bucket shop.

Any organisation with proper heraldic knowledge and respect for heraldic traditions would not devise arms for a person who is not entitled to them.You are a citizen of the UK and as such you are not entitled.