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28th July 14, 12:54 PM
#1
 Originally Posted by Nathan
Yay for modern spelling!
Eadhon dean agus na caomhain idir
Even do and do not ever spare - there or there abouts
Cuimhne am Bàs - Remember the death. - in so many words
If I'm reading this right, it is confusing.
How can the daughter be born in 1783 die in 1793 but only be 4 years old? Shouldn't she be 10? Maybe 1793 is a faded 1798?
May be, or perhaps you're not reading it right . The dates are correct. Seall a'rithist.
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28th July 14, 03:52 PM
#2
 Originally Posted by figheadair
May be, or perhaps you're not reading it right  . The dates are correct. Seall a'rithist.
Even do and never spare
In memory of the time of death
Placed here at no charge to allow Donald MacGregor, redeemed/freed/saved at Myaugh, to be able to commemorate/remember his wife Anna MacCaura who died on the 1st of June 1793, aged 53 years, and their daughter Catrina MacGregor, who died on the 11th day of November 1783, aged 4 years.
Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
“Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.
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28th July 14, 10:52 PM
#3
 Originally Posted by Nathan
Even do and never spare
In memory of the time of death
Placed here at no charge to allow Donald MacGregor, redeemed/freed/saved at Myaugh, to be able to commemorate/remember his wife Anna MacCaura who died on the 1st of June 1793, aged 53 years, and their daughter Catrina MacGregor, who died on the 11th day of November 1783, aged 4 years.
Nearly there Nathan. The literal translation of Air a cuir suas is correct but in this context it means Erected. Saor has many meanings and in this case it refers to Donald's occupation, a wright/carpenter. I wouldn't expect anyone would necessarily get Maigh Eadh, I certainly wouldn't have had I not known that it referred to a place i.e. a placename, Monzie which lies a couples of miles north of Crieff.
Here's the English and Latin inscriptin on the reverse:
E’EN DO & SPARE NOT
MEMENTO MORI
ERECTED BY
DONALD MCGREGOR
WRIGHT IN MON
ZIE IN MEMORY OF
ANN MCARA HIS
SPOUSE WHO DIED
1ST OF JUNE 1793 AGED
53 YR ALSO CATHARINE
MCGREGOR HIS DAUT
HTER WHO DIED THE
11TH NOVR 1783 AGED 4 YR
Now others can join in the discussion of this facinating and rare historic monument.
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29th July 14, 01:32 AM
#4
I did wonder if 'MAIDHGHEADH' was the same as 'Meagaidh', as in the mountain 'Creag Meagaidh', which means 'crag of the bog land'. I wasn't at all sure how that fitted in with the inscription however if Monzie (Maigh Eadh) means 'bog land' that would explain it!
A few things stand out. Firstly, the clan motto takes pride of place at the head of the inscription. It's the late 18th century and the clan system has been destroyed, but this person clearly identifies strongly with his clan.
Secondly, Monzie is not the world's biggest place, but there was enough of a community to support a (wheel?)wright/carpenter, and he made enough of a living to afford to commission a fairly impressive headstone for his departed loved ones.
Thirdly, his daughter was born when his wife was aged nearly 40. It's a fair guess that this was not their first child, and there were probably a fair few older siblings.
Fourthly, his wife died aged 53. By modern standards this is young, but in pre-industrial Scotland it was probably a fair innings.
Lastly, and most sadly, his daughter did not fare so well, living a mere four years on this earth. This brings home the high infant & child mortality of the time, before modern medicine.
The headstone gives a fascinating glimpse into life in Perthshire at the edge of the Highland Line at the end of the 18th century. It is in some ways idyllic, Monzie is a beautiful fertile place, and it appears that Donald McGregor and his family did OK for themselves. On the other hand, life could be arbitrary and brutal at times, hence the warning 'MEMENTO MORI'- REMEMBER DEATH! Urging us to consider the vanity of earthly life and the transient nature of all worldly goods and pursuits.
On the other hand you could reflect upon another old Scottish saying- 'Ye're a lang time deid!'
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29th July 14, 04:04 AM
#5
 Originally Posted by Calgacus
I did wonder if 'MAIDHGHEADH' was the same as 'Meagaidh', as in the mountain 'Creag Meagaidh', which means 'crag of the bog land'. I wasn't at all sure how that fitted in with the inscription however if Monzie (Maigh Eadh) means 'bog land' that would explain it!
Monzie is translated elsewhere as being from Moighidh but in the inscription it is spelt Maidhgheadh, perhaps a local variation or an attempt to spell the Gaelic pronunciation, and is presumably from the root ‘magh’, a field or level plane and ‘Eadh’, the meaning of which I can’t fit with 'magh'. Watson, in his Celtic Place-names of Scotland got Magh-iodh and Magh-eadh from Gaelic speakers. He also collected Magh Bhàrd for Monzievaird. If one follows Watson's alternative spelling of iodh then we have 'corn' or more generally 'food' so perhaps the original meaning was something like the field or plane of corn.
Last edited by figheadair; 29th July 14 at 04:11 AM.
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29th July 14, 04:18 AM
#6
 Originally Posted by figheadair
Monzie is translated elsewhere as being from Moighidh but in the inscription it is spelt Maidhgheadh, perhaps a local variation or an attempt to spell the Gaelic pronunciation, and is presumably from the root ‘magh’, a field or level plane and ‘Eadh’, the meaning of which I can’t fit with 'magh'. Watson, in his Celtic Place-names of Scotland got Magh-iodh and Magh-eadh from Gaelic speakers. He also collected Magh Bhàrd for Monzievaird. If one follows Watson's alternative spelling of iodh then we have 'corn' or more generally 'food' so perhaps the original meaning was something like the field or plane of corn.
That makes much more sense, as the land around Monzie is better described as 'field of corn' than 'bog land'.
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29th July 14, 04:38 AM
#7
 Originally Posted by Calgacus
I did wonder if 'MAIDHGHEADH' was the same as 'Meagaidh', as in the mountain 'Creag Meagaidh', which means 'crag of the bog land'. I wasn't at all sure how that fitted in with the inscription however if Monzie (Maigh Eadh) means 'bog land' that would explain it!
A few things stand out. Firstly, the clan motto takes pride of place at the head of the inscription. It's the late 18th century and the clan system has been destroyed, but this person clearly identifies strongly with his clan.
Secondly, Monzie is not the world's biggest place, but there was enough of a community to support a (wheel?)wright/carpenter, and he made enough of a living to afford to commission a fairly impressive headstone for his departed loved ones.
Thirdly, his daughter was born when his wife was aged nearly 40. It's a fair guess that this was not their first child, and there were probably a fair few older siblings.
Fourthly, his wife died aged 53. By modern standards this is young, but in pre-industrial Scotland it was probably a fair innings.
Lastly, and most sadly, his daughter did not fare so well, living a mere four years on this earth. This brings home the high infant & child mortality of the time, before modern medicine.
The headstone gives a fascinating glimpse into life in Perthshire at the edge of the Highland Line at the end of the 18th century. It is in some ways idyllic, Monzie is a beautiful fertile place, and it appears that Donald McGregor and his family did OK for themselves. On the other hand, life could be arbitrary and brutal at times, hence the warning 'MEMENTO MORI'- REMEMBER DEATH! Urging us to consider the vanity of earthly life and the transient nature of all worldly goods and pursuits.
On the other hand you could reflect upon another old Scottish saying- 'Ye're a lang time deid!' 
Well stated, Calgacus.
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29th July 14, 04:47 AM
#8
Interestingly, the Gaelic name for Myaugh in C. Wexford is also Maigh Eadh, which threw me off the carpenter meaning and made me think the man found religion in Ireland. Just a coincidence that Monzie was rendered this way, I suppose.
The clan system had been destroyed, but only a few decades earlier. I can tell you that clan mottos are on old and new gravestones in Nova Scotia so the pride didn't die nearly as quickly as the system.
Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
“Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.
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29th July 14, 05:32 AM
#9
Indeed, his wife would have been about five years old in 1745, and he himself would probably have been a young lad of similar age, maybe a few years older. I wonder what impression it left on him?
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29th July 14, 05:41 AM
#10
A number of things about this stone interest me:
1. To find a fully bi-lingual inscription front and back is extremely rare - I know of no other examples. This double inscription would have been an expensive outlay for a carpenter. His son also pre-deceased Donald but his gravestone (early 1800s) in only in English.
2. The Gaelic has a number of spelling errors that suggest that Donald MacGregor whilst a native speaker was not fully literate in Gaelic and so presumably wrote out his approximation based on being literate in English.
3. The Gaelic inscription contains some interesting insights into the structure of female patronymics. Normally these are written Nic from nighean mhicbut on this stone they are written Nich, a variation that I've never seen before and perhaps a local dialectal version.
4. The names of the month are in English - surprised that no-one's picked that up. Whilst there are Gaelic equivalents for all the months including June (An t-Òg-mhìos) and September (An t-Sultaine) it may be that because of the links with some to pre-Christian religious beliefs that the Gaelic church always use the Latin based names for the months of the year.
5. In translation the Anglicised form of the female forenames and surnames are used: Anna becomes Ann, NichCaura - McAra, Catrina - Catherine and NichGregair - McGregor.
6. The Gaelic version of the motto contains an extra word from the standard Eadhon dean agus na caomhain and is rendered Eadhon dean agus na caomhain idir. Idir means 'at all'. Perhaps this is a local version or perhaps this was the original form. Given that the English (Scots) version is on the reverse it is evident that both forms were current at the end of the 18th century. It would be interesting to find the earliest records of both which in turn would be a good indication of which was probably the original form.
7. Cuimhne Am Bas is an unusual Gaelic term and was probably a deliberate translation of the traditional 'Memento Mori'.
For simplicity, if one assumes that Donald was the same age as his wife then they were born in 1740 and so grew up in a time or turmoil and change as the clan system was dismantled. The next task is to try and track Donald's family and determine whether he was local or moved to the area from further west.
This stone is extremely unusual and ultimately the aim must be to preserve it for future generations.
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