I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[Steve Ashton]

I'm going to quote something here which I had a very very strong knee jerk reaction to.

"This idea concerns me the most. People wear anything under the sun to Highland games. If this change was made it would effectively kill the traditional sub-forum which, as David Pope points out, is working well.'

I honestly believe that this is at the crux of why I think the current Traditional section is NOT working.
I work Highland Games. I see all kinds of people and I see all kinds of ways to dress.
But at Games there is one thing that binds everyone together. They are celebrating their Scottish Heritage.

To me it does not matter that a guy shows up in an old Prince Charlie three sizes too big and a traditional kilt kilt worn at jeans waist with the hem overlapping the tops of his white hose.

It also does not matter that another guy shows up with blue face paint and a double handed broadsword across his back.

Both of these guys are dressing in what they believe is their best Scottish outfits.

Where I take objection is the suggestion in the above quote that they are somehow wrong. That is just the height of Kilt Koppery.

If I see a guy dressed in his laird's plaid, and cromach two things come to mind.
The first thought is Öh, are they are doing Brigadoon this year." and then "That guy must be part of the floor show".
If you want to dress like your idea of a Highland Chief, fine. But to most people at games here in N. America you are seen to be in costume just like the guy playing at being Mel Gibson.

To suggest, or as is often the case on this forum lately, that one guy is somehow right and the other wrong is just WRONG!

The other thing that causes me to have a knee jerk reaction (and we are starting to see hints of it in others) is that somehow this is a contest about how Scottish you are.
We even had just such a contest on this forum not too long ago. I almost shut that thread down for the simple fact that -
This is a kilt fashion forum. It is not a Scottish forum. Nor is it a Scottish Heritage or Scottish life forum.
If you wanted a Scottish forum you should have posted more over on "The Scot's Forum" and kept it going. Or failing that, bought "The Scot's Forum" and made it into what you want.

It even says so right in our Mission Statement -

"This site is a place where our members can enjoy the company of all other fellow kilt wearers. We wish to provide a place where those who choose to wear the kilt can find friendship, information, guidance, advice, and share their kilt experiences with others.


This is a Kilt Forum. Our members come here to learn about, discuss and share a love for the kilt. This is not a Scottish specific forum nor is it a highland wear specific forum, just as it is not a modern wear specific forum. We keep our focus on the kilt. It is what brings us here and what makes this forum unique in the world."

What I am seeing more and more of is an attitude of elitism and ego boosting about being so right, so Scottish.

I am honestly trying to find a way to make everyone who chooses to put on a kilt, for whatever reason, to be welcome here.

This forum recognizes the Scottish origins of the kilt and the part the kilt plays in the Scottish dress. But we also need to see and welcome the UK/dreadlock/big boot style of kilts.

You don't know how many times I have bitten my tongue and not shouted - IF YOU WANT TO DRESS LIKE A TRUE SCOT, THEN YOU NEED TO DRESS LIKE THIS!"



YES
It was native Scots living in Scotland who gave the world White Hose.
It was native Scots living in Scotland who gave the world Ruche ties.
Yes, it was even native Scots living in Scotland who taught the world to dress in the "Cookie cutter" way.
Want proof, just look though the site of one of our Scottish advertisers on the top banner or the bottom banner.

And then we deride the guy who dresses like the examples he sees all over the web.

It is only on this site where we hold some old photos from a 1900 catalog up as an ideal and then try to tell some other person they are wrong for the way they put on their kilt.

I honestly believe that we need to take a chill pill. When a newbie comes to us and says he wants to wear the kilt we should be responding with, "Come on in, the water's fine".

[hector]

What I am seeing more and more of is an attitude of elitism and ego boosting about being so right, so Scottish.

Unfortunately this is very true.

[Calgacus]

Another big 'plus one' (Kyleism) for Nathan's post #6

[JonathanB]

I seriously wonder that if there is confusion between three categories, as at present, there will be even more confusion between five categories as Nathan suggests.

How about just two categories? Trad and modern? The trouble is the smug superiority that attaches to the word Traditionalism.

I post on another messageboard of Christian interest. There can be discussions of the detail of appropriate vestments. These discussions are nothing when it comes to nit picking and dogmatism compared to discussions of kilts here at times.

For me tradition doesn't mean lack of change. It is the means by which change and continuity are held together.

[Nathan]

I seriously wonder that if there is confusion between three categories, as at present, there will be even more confusion between five categories as Nathan suggests.

How about just two categories? Trad and modern? The trouble is the smug superiority that attaches to the word Traditionalism.

I post on another messageboard of Christian interest. There can be discussions of the detail of appropriate vestments. These discussions are nothing when it comes to nit picking and dogmatism compared to discussions of kilts here at times.

For me tradition doesn't mean lack of change. It is the means by which change and continuity are held together.

I think "modern" implies that traditional is "old fashioned" and I actually believe you are dead on that it is the means by which change and continuity are held together. That's why I wrote, "now" with due respect given to "then".

People who dress traditionally are not dressing historically. They are dressing traditionally. Which is to say, they are wearing what is seen today as correct -yes, correct - by tradition bearers.

I don't think non-traditional is second class. Given the hostility I'm feeling toward the tradition around here by some, I think the non-traditionalists are quite capable of owning that accurate label. Their clothing is no more modern than mine, it's just less traditional.

[Father Bill]

I think "modern" implies that traditional is "old fashioned" and I actually believe you are dead on that it is the means by which change and continuity are held together. That's why I wrote, "now" with due respect given to "then".

People who dress traditionally are not dressing historically. They are dressing traditionally. Which is to say, they are wearing what is seen today as correct -yes, correct - by tradition bearers.

I don't think non-traditional is second class. Given the hostility I'm feeling toward the tradition around here by some, I think the non-traditionalists are quite capable of owning that accurate label. Their clothing is no more modern than mine, it's just less traditional.

A simple "Aye" isn't nearly strong enough for me on this one. Steve is quite right to stand up for the non-traditionalists, but yes, I detect more than just an undercurrent of hostility against those who seek to be traditional too... whatever those terms may mean!

[Calgacus]

I think "modern" implies that traditional is "old fashioned" and I actually believe you are dead on that it is the means by which change and continuity are held together. That's why I wrote, "now" with due respect given to "then".

People who dress traditionally are not dressing historically. They are dressing traditionally. Which is to say, they are wearing what is seen today as correct -yes, correct - by tradition bearers.

I don't think non-traditional is second class. Given the hostility I'm feeling toward the tradition around here by some, I think the non-traditionalists are quite capable of owning that accurate label. Their clothing is no more modern than mine, it's just less traditional.

Precisely! Well said, Nathan.

[CMcG]

...
I am honestly trying to find a way to make everyone who chooses to put on a kilt, for whatever reason, to be welcome here.
...

Steve, I think that is an excellent sentiment.

Here are my suggestions for style sub-fora. I have drawn on Nathan's "approaches" approach, but did a bit of tweaking.

Historical and Costume Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the latest trends in retail, rental/hire, and runway style.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Postmodern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.


The General and Accessories sub-fora will remain a free-for-all because they are open. I guess we're missing a section on uniforms, but that is more a question of regulations than options... I suppose solo pipers who have the freedom to choose could post in the Celtic Music section?

And for visual examples, here are pics of the inimitable Panache because he is one of the few people—if not the only person—who has posted photos of himself in all four categories.


Historical and Costume Kilt Wear:




Fashion Kilt Wear:





Traditional Kilt Wear:





Postmodern Kilt Wear:

[Father Bill]

Steve, I think that is an excellent sentiment

Here are my suggestions for style sub-fora. I have drawn on Nathan's "approaches" approach, but did a bit of tweaking.

Historical and Costume Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the latest trends in retail, rental/hire, and runway style.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Postmodern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and street wear that privileges personal interpretation.


The General and Accessories sub-fora will remain a free-for-all because they are open. I guess we're missing a section on uniforms, but that is more a question of regulations than options... I suppose solo pipers who have the freedom to choose could post in the Celtic Music section?

I REALLY like this categorization because it would allow me to ignore the segments that don't interest me as much. Steve, that's the problem with some of the overlapping categories; there are some that I really don't want the bother of sorting through while others fascinate me. That's an advantage in our current system; I worry that if we get some different criteria I may lose interest entirely when I have to read through stuff to see if it's what I care about.

[Calgacus]

Steve, I think that is an excellent sentiment.

Here are my suggestions for style sub-fora. I have drawn on Nathan's "approaches" approach, but did a bit of tweaking.

Historical and Costume Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the latest trends in retail, rental/hire, and runway style.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Postmodern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.


The General and Accessories sub-fora will remain a free-for-all because they are open. I guess we're missing a section on uniforms, but that is more a question of regulations than options... I suppose solo pipers who have the freedom to choose could post in the Celtic Music section?

Another big 'plus one' for this approach, this one is the best yet, to my mind.