Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[neloon]

Your opinion means more than many to me, being, I believe, from near the Sinclair end of Scotland.

Bill,
This made me sit back and think - XMarks has to be good for something. First, I had to tie down in my head where the Sinclair focus might be apart from "way up north"! You were a bit dispersed but I finally decided on Wick. Now, Scotland is a tiny country but that shouldn't make outsiders think we've all been everywhere. Wick is 198 miles away by road estimated to take 4.5 hours. Jock is 166 miles from Wick and it would take him 3 hours and 50 minutes. (And Jock and I are separated by 147 miles or 3.5 hours.) Anyway, I've never been as far north as Wick (in Scotland) and I don't remember being in Fort William within the last 50 years or so. I go southwards endlessly (Edinburgh, Glasgow and, especially, St. Andrews) and I do annually go to visit a friend over in Gairloch (165 miles = 3.75 hours). Anyway, thank you for valuing my opinion, but I don't think that has much to do with nearness to Sinclair lands.

Naturally in my researches I noticed how nomadic the Sinclairs were from Norway (where before that?) to France to southern Scotland to Orkney - almost back to the beginning. Did they, at each stage, hang on to their last roots?* Didn't stop them fighting Norway in the 1260s - a country they had left a few hundred years earlier. (They went on to roast a bishop live and were on the wrong(?) side at Culloden but we won't hold that against you!)

* Just to prove we're still on topic!

Alan

[Father Bill]

Alan, I love it! You're a good fellow to have here and a generous spirit which is why I feel free to tease a wee bit about your location. I hope you understood that intent.

Let's put it this way: You're a heck of a lot closer to those lands than I!

Cheers & Blessings,

Bill+


P.S. - Your post about having a "Scottish Soul" was of interest to me. I have a vague notional theory of what I've referred to from time to time over the years as "Blood Memory". My father's heritage always screamed in my ears although I've not much followed it, but Scotland also always hollered at me. My Grade eight project at age 12 was a 100 page booklet on Scottish history, tartans, and the various connections to Canada. I never knew why it spoke so clearly to me.

Dad's heritage I knew and loved, but my mother said her family was English, from Oxfordshire, something that little interested me despite my best attempts to cultivate it, but she too had a fascination with Scotland that she never explained. However, when I took the time and followed her maiden name back, it came to Caithness and the Orkneys, and the Sinclairs.

That was actually after I had been in Scotland. At the time, I couldn't figure out why, deep in my guts I felt as if I had finally come home when I was in Rosslyn, an experience that was actually the reason that I took the time to trace her name back.

It has been a gentle sense of satisfaction to finally know where that voice in my head may have come from, none of which I can explain, but I think your comment may be related.

Not overly salient; just interesting. Thanks for bringing it up.

Bill+

[MacKenzie]

Quite the entertaining thread.

First:

The point of this thread is the question: how one can claim a nationality without being a national? American without being American, for example. Since Scots generally speaking don't hanker after being anything other than Scottish, some here are seeking to understand the reason behind Americans (Canadians, Australians, whatever) wishing to claim another nationality than their own.

We don’t. It’s been made very clear that that quibble is over semantics.

And then we jump tracks.

We are in this thread discussing a completely different aspect-------genealogy-------in the hope of greater international understanding which should be informative to many members here.

And…

This rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.

And...

The puzzle is that, changing ALL to MOST, that's just about the situation in Scotland. But we don't care about it.

But, plenty of people in Scotland do care about their genealogy/ancestry/history/roots. They may be in the minority, but so might those that “don’t care”.


And finally the real rub for the Scots participating in this thread.

May I, instead, pick up on something David said a while back - that will be OK as we agree he is a gentleman and thick-skinned.
" Wow, I hadn't appreciated exactly what the population of Scotland is. I knew that in terms of geography it was about the size of South Carolina, but I'm struck by the fact that the population of North Carolina is almost twice that of Scotland."
Now, should this lack of knowledge bother us? I suspect it may not be atypical of XMarkers. The vast majority of XMarkers are US citizens who are, in a way, self-appointed ambassadors for Scotland in the US.

That’s a stretch, but thanks for the appointment… I think.

I wish you knew more about the real Scotland of today rather than what might be gleaned from dreamy ancestral echoes.

Quite an assumption there.

So, “All this banter about kilts and tartan and history is fine and dandy, but that’s not the ‘real Scotland of today’.”

This is a kilt forum.

[neloon]

So, “All this banter about kilts and tartan and history is fine and dandy, but that’s not the ‘real Scotland of today’.”

This is a kilt forum.

I can see your point but this thread is about the Scottish diaspora - not the "kilt diaspora". Of course the site title does nothing to resolve the confusion (even though we now seem to have discovered that it really means something like " X marks the descendant of at least one Scot"). So is the Scottish diaspora interested only in the paraphernalia of Scottishness and not the ‘real Scotland of today’?

Alan

[Father Bill]

So is the Scottish diaspora interested only in the paraphernalia of Scottishness and not the ‘real Scotland of today’?

Alan

Depends on which "diasporite" you're talking about! Personally, I want it all because to me, what you wear is greatly influenced by your understanding of the culture, the thought processes and the language and habits of the people.

[neloon]

Depends on which "diasporite" you're talking about! Personally, I want it all because to me, what you wear is greatly influenced by your understanding of the culture, the thought processes and the language and habits of the people.

Of course, as long as it's not "the people" of 200 years ago.

MacKenzie,
I wouldn't think of "the real Scotland of today" as being about politics. Me teasing Bill about road-miles is not about politics but I think it does say something about real Scotland. I don't think I have ever even hinted at current Scottish politics on this site but I am forever trying to open little windows on the way things are. As I have said before, it is a commonplace that people in small countries know more about large countries than vice-versa and I like to try to redress that imbalance.

David,
"not my story"
Well this goes back to my "you're ambassadors for Scotland" comment which Mackenzie wasn't very sure if he liked. If XMTS really means "X marks the kilt" then I think that implies that, in US eyes "kilt" = "Scot" (in some sense). Yes? Is that not what a passer by in the street assumes? If that is even occasionally so, then I do not see it as unreasonable to hope that your kilting will enhance Scotland's good name. If not, then you can see why the US is characterised in the rest of the world as only interested in itself.

Alan

[MacKenzie]

So is the Scottish diaspora interested only in the paraphernalia of Scottishness and not the ‘real Scotland of today’?

Speaking only for myself, obviously, no. But this site is about the former and it's rules limit, if not altogether prevent, discussion about the latter*. So it shouldn't be assumed that "we" don't know or care about the Scotland of today.

*And that's fine with me. There are other venues for discussing politics and current events.

[davidlpope]

So is the Scottish diaspora interested only in the paraphernalia of Scottishness and not the ‘real Scotland of today’?

Alan

Paraphernalia, history, and traditional culture, yes. The rest of it is y'all's to deal with.

The reason is simple, though. My family's last direct connection to Scotland was 1880. Everything that comes after that is not my story.

[Reiver]

Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post

So is the Scottish diaspora interested only in the paraphernalia of Scottishness and not the ‘real Scotland of today’?

Alan

I agree with David on this generally.

My interest is in the old historical elements of Scotland and not the politics or issues of today....that is yours alone obviously and I'd not hazard an opinion on what Scots should do except to be supportive and take the time to look at the issues you think important.

I read and collect books that historically cover Scotland from the earliest recorded events (currently "The Borders" by Moffat) thru the mid/late 1700's.

I've never met an individual that thought they 'were Scots' in the modern sense and all that entails. It is a historical connection (that dreaded lineage thing again) that is, in my family's case thanks to my cousin David, recorded back to the early/mid 1600's presently (in the borders btw so my adoption of a kilt is total thievery).

I find it interesting that you find lineage/genealogy to be silly yet have a peerage and individuals that do nothing but investigate lineage (Lord Lyon) for official and unofficial recording.

I have a caveat tho as I've thought more about this....we probably do invest some in Scotland of today if we keep up with the doings of our area of interest but generally as it relates to that as above.
I do follow what the Duke of Buccleuch does business and charity wise so there is that.

[neloon]

I find it interesting that you find lineage/genealogy to be silly yet have a peerage and individuals that do nothing but investigate lineage (Lord Lyon) for official and unofficial recording.

Most, and I really mean MOST, Scots want to get rid of anything hereditary but, you will understand, it is not in Scotland's control.

Alan