Celtic Crest

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

John,

I am afraid I have a slightly different take on some of the points you've raised with Matt:

The point is Mat, that the Clans Person is only allowed by courtesy of the chief to wear the badge in a Belt & Buckle as a metallic badge if it is reproduced in other media it should be in B/W to represent that this is the Clans Persons Bonnet Badge.

I'm about halfway here on this point. The clansman's badge (CB) is comprised of two basic elements: the Chief's crest, and the buckle and strap that encircle it. The chief's motto should always appear on the strap.

The badge, although purchased by the clansman and therefore his property, can only be worn or displayed without the objection of the chief. Although usually made of white metal and worn on the bonnet, the badge may be made from any material and worn in any manner that is appropriate.

It is not, even in the broadest sense, merely a clansman's bonnet badge (emphasis mine).

No Mat, it should be depicted in B/W in other media, because they had badge made in gold is their personal choice.

This goes back to the days of engraved printing, and really only applied to things like the letter paper used by Clan Societies. There was also a strong social convention that implied colour printing was, some how, "vulgar" (probably because of the obvious cost).

Technically if you put the crest in a belt & buckle on a piece of silver for example you are stating that this belongs to the Chief or Armiger as it is his crest you are using as a courtesy.

That's right. An Armiger (someone with is own coat of arms) may display his crest in any manner of his choice. You may not.

Yes in heraldry colour does play an important roll however this does not transpose over to badges as such. Evan in Fairbairns Crest they are depicted in B/W.

Fairbairn's Crests was created as a guide for jewelry engravers and printers. As neither of these trades would have any need for colour renditions of the crests, to say nothing of the cost of producing the two volumes in colour, it was done in B&W.

Yes, in heraldry colour does play an important role. In the Letters Patent of a grant of arms the crest is as carefully blazoned as the shield of arms itself. The crest of a Chief is therefore always represented in colour unless worked in a single metal, or engraved on paper (and even here it may be reproduced in full colour). Because it is at all times and in all mediums the property of the Chief, he may direct that, when used as a clansman's badge, it only be displayed as a monochromatic line drawing, in all of its technicolour glory, or a combination of either depending on use, display, and medium.

The only time that it would be "wrong" to display the clansman's badge in colour, would be if the Chief had directed otherwise.

At the end of the day the Clans Person is only entitled by courtsy to wear the badge and no more.

I would agree with this, as there is no "right" to wear or display the clansman's badge, other than without the objection of the Chief. The same applies to "clan societies" which are not recognized by the chief.

Oh yes. And to tee-shirt printers, as well!



I suggest Mat you join the Heraldry Society of Scotland forum Click hre for details on how to register to the Forum they are far more learned than I and would give you a better more knowlageable answer. The forum may be of interest in other aspects also.[/QUOTE]

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The only time that it would be "wrong" to display the clansman's badge in colour, would be if the Chief had directed otherwise.

This, I find perfectly reasonable. It makes much more sense than to have an overarching rule stating the clansman's badges can only be portrayed in B&W. And at the same time it honors the fact that the crest which makes up the badge is the personal property of the chief.

Sketraw:

The point is Mat, that the Clans Person is only allowed by courtesy of the chief to wear the badge in a Belt & Buckle as a metallic badge if it is reproduced in other media it should be in B/W to represent that this is the Clans Persons Bonnet Badge.

But how does rendering it in B&W represent the fact that this is the clansman's badge? Doesn't encircling the crest withint the belt and buckle bearing the motto serve that function?

[Sketraw]

But how does rendering it in B&W represent the fact that this is the clansman's badge? Doesn't encircling the crest withint the belt and buckle bearing the motto serve that function?

Rendering it in B/W is meant to depict the badge in metal, silver coloured metal in heraldry is depicted as white. I don't think Lyon Court would be saying it should always be depicted this way unless it was. After all Lyon is the one that dictates the rules for helraldry.

The only way a clansman can show allegiance to his Chief is the wearing of the clansman's badge in a belt and buckle and that is only as a courtesy even to his own sons.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The only way a clansman can show allegiance to his Chief is the wearing of the clansman's badge in a belt and buckle and that is only as a courtesy even to his own sons.

John, this raises a tangentially interesting point.

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

[Highland Logan]

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

Not to cut in, but I beleave that the 1st son, or heir would properly wear the crest of his father (same number of eagle feathers depending on rank of the father) in a plan circlet with the motto, the only difference between father and son would the the addition of a label of three points cadency mark.

Frank

[Sketraw]

John, this raises a tangentially interesting point.

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

The 1st son as heir of the undifferented arms of his father has to wait until his father dies. The second and third son have to matriculate differenced arms on leaving the family home if they wish to continue using arms so could well be armigerous before the heir.

Not to cut in, but I beleave that the 1st son, or heir would properly wear the crest of his father (same number of eagle feathers depending on rank of the father) in a plan circlet with the motto, the only difference between father and son would the the addition of a label of three points cadency mark.

The heir Frank, who is allowed to use the arms of his father as a courtesy but differenced by a three point label is not armigerous. He should not wear a feather and he must wear his fathers crest in a belt & buckle.

[Highland Logan]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

[Sketraw]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

Hi Frank, I know Mark Harden of Cowdeknowes very well, yes he seems to say that he is armigerous but he is not, as he is the heir to his fathers arms Barry Harden of Cowdenknowes (hence the three point label on his arms). However he is the Feudal Baron of Cowdenknowes and may well be able to wear feathers in his bunnet.

[celticstudio]

Hi all,
Interesting to see that this discussion started with the purchase of a T shirt, copyright and has led to further exploration about black and white verus colour for the Clan crest.
MAC LACHLAN started the duscusion about value, quality and price. He decided to purchase a simple one colour T shirt because of price. Yes, it is far less expensive to silk screen in one colour no matter how thick the paint.

The second issue made me laugh. Copyright! Other writers here rbrought up the subject and others followed it to see if it was an "authorized" use. They discovered that the artwork had been "stolen". No royalty paid.. no time spent by the vender. Outright theft! Yes that is indeed true. As the owner and artist of Celtic Studio I can say that I have spent many, many hours of dedicated research and effort to draw and design of my Clan crest images (33 years actually!) It is a huge task and I do every crest in full colour. It is a true irony that while MACLACHLAN chose another company to supply is less expensive T shirt with "stolen" artwork he then chose to "STEAL" my artwork as his logo for use here. The inage displayed is mine and it still has my copyright symbol on it! MACLACHLAN.. you are forgiven. You may use it because you are not using it for commercial purposes. I allow this and any other member here my use my images which are readily available on my web page. If you ever find any error please let me know and I will change it .. I appreciate the feedback. We are here to make sure things are correct after all that is how true history survives.
Black and white as opposed to colour. My knowledge of this is that when the Clan crest is being displayed in a manner that is NOT in the metal form it is only correct to display it in colour as long as it is displayed with the words " An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh" I "discoverd this in the landmark text by Frank Adam, "The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" and it appears to be a ruling by Lord Lyons. I can not find the exact page at the moment but that is why all of my artwork in colour has thise words and is used on everything that I make that is not metal. never used on metal.
Hope this is of interest and help.
All the best
Louis Walsh
Heraldic artist and owner of Celtic Studio

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This, I find perfectly reasonable. It makes much more sense than to have an overarching rule stating the clansman's badges can only be portrayed in B&W. And at the same time it honors the fact that the crest which makes up the badge is the personal property of the chief.

Sketraw:


But how does rendering it in B&W represent the fact that this is the clansman's badge? Doesn't encircling the crest withint the belt and buckle bearing the motto serve that function?

Absolutely. Whether engraved on metal, laser-printed on paper, or tattooed on someone's... arm, it is the buckle and strap with motto that transforms the crest into a badge.