Celtic Crest

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The only time that it would be "wrong" to display the clansman's badge in colour, would be if the Chief had directed otherwise.

This, I find perfectly reasonable. It makes much more sense than to have an overarching rule stating the clansman's badges can only be portrayed in B&W. And at the same time it honors the fact that the crest which makes up the badge is the personal property of the chief.

Sketraw:

The point is Mat, that the Clans Person is only allowed by courtesy of the chief to wear the badge in a Belt & Buckle as a metallic badge if it is reproduced in other media it should be in B/W to represent that this is the Clans Persons Bonnet Badge.

But how does rendering it in B&W represent the fact that this is the clansman's badge? Doesn't encircling the crest withint the belt and buckle bearing the motto serve that function?

[Sketraw]

But how does rendering it in B&W represent the fact that this is the clansman's badge? Doesn't encircling the crest withint the belt and buckle bearing the motto serve that function?

Rendering it in B/W is meant to depict the badge in metal, silver coloured metal in heraldry is depicted as white. I don't think Lyon Court would be saying it should always be depicted this way unless it was. After all Lyon is the one that dictates the rules for helraldry.

The only way a clansman can show allegiance to his Chief is the wearing of the clansman's badge in a belt and buckle and that is only as a courtesy even to his own sons.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The only way a clansman can show allegiance to his Chief is the wearing of the clansman's badge in a belt and buckle and that is only as a courtesy even to his own sons.

John, this raises a tangentially interesting point.

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

[Highland Logan]

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

Not to cut in, but I beleave that the 1st son, or heir would properly wear the crest of his father (same number of eagle feathers depending on rank of the father) in a plan circlet with the motto, the only difference between father and son would the the addition of a label of three points cadency mark.

Frank

[Sketraw]

John, this raises a tangentially interesting point.

Angus Armiger has three sons, all of whom have now reached their majority and have married. Sons 2 & 3 have matriculated a differenced version of their father's arms and are now entitled to wear a single eagle feather on high days and holidays and at the Pursuviant Highland Games. What is the status of #1 son?

The 1st son as heir of the undifferented arms of his father has to wait until his father dies. The second and third son have to matriculate differenced arms on leaving the family home if they wish to continue using arms so could well be armigerous before the heir.

Not to cut in, but I beleave that the 1st son, or heir would properly wear the crest of his father (same number of eagle feathers depending on rank of the father) in a plan circlet with the motto, the only difference between father and son would the the addition of a label of three points cadency mark.

The heir Frank, who is allowed to use the arms of his father as a courtesy but differenced by a three point label is not armigerous. He should not wear a feather and he must wear his fathers crest in a belt & buckle.

[Highland Logan]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

[Sketraw]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

Hi Frank, I know Mark Harden of Cowdeknowes very well, yes he seems to say that he is armigerous but he is not, as he is the heir to his fathers arms Barry Harden of Cowdenknowes (hence the three point label on his arms). However he is the Feudal Baron of Cowdenknowes and may well be able to wear feathers in his bunnet.

[Highland Logan]

Thanks for the clearification John.

Frank

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi Frank, I know Mark Harden of Cowdeknowes very well, yes he seems to say that he is armigerous but he is not, as he is the heir to his fathers arms Barry Harden of Cowdenknowes (hence the three point label on his arms). However he is the Feudal Baron of Cowdenknowes and may well be able to wear feathers in his bunnet.

Since the Abolition of Feudalism Act (Scotland) 2000 about the only perks left to the Baronage are their two eagle feathers, their two pipers, and a plethora of flags, banners, and standards. It seems that it is very much the custom among the peerage and baronage to regard all younger sons (and presumably) daughters as de facto armigers, and to further accord them a single eagle's feather. I've no idea where this came from, but the words "The Ilk" were muttered within earshot...

That said, it is entirely inappropriate for anyone other than a chieftain or feudal baron to display two eagle feathers as those are the distinctive and sole right of the baron or chieftain. The reasoning behind this is that there can only be one baron or chieftain at any given moment. Heirs, both apparent and presumptive, must wait until they accede to the barony or chieftainship before displaying both feathers.

[celticstudio]

Hi all,
Interesting to see that this discussion started with the purchase of a T shirt, copyright and has led to further exploration about black and white verus colour for the Clan crest.
MAC LACHLAN started the duscusion about value, quality and price. He decided to purchase a simple one colour T shirt because of price. Yes, it is far less expensive to silk screen in one colour no matter how thick the paint.

The second issue made me laugh. Copyright! Other writers here rbrought up the subject and others followed it to see if it was an "authorized" use. They discovered that the artwork had been "stolen". No royalty paid.. no time spent by the vender. Outright theft! Yes that is indeed true. As the owner and artist of Celtic Studio I can say that I have spent many, many hours of dedicated research and effort to draw and design of my Clan crest images (33 years actually!) It is a huge task and I do every crest in full colour. It is a true irony that while MACLACHLAN chose another company to supply is less expensive T shirt with "stolen" artwork he then chose to "STEAL" my artwork as his logo for use here. The inage displayed is mine and it still has my copyright symbol on it! MACLACHLAN.. you are forgiven. You may use it because you are not using it for commercial purposes. I allow this and any other member here my use my images which are readily available on my web page. If you ever find any error please let me know and I will change it .. I appreciate the feedback. We are here to make sure things are correct after all that is how true history survives.
Black and white as opposed to colour. My knowledge of this is that when the Clan crest is being displayed in a manner that is NOT in the metal form it is only correct to display it in colour as long as it is displayed with the words " An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh" I "discoverd this in the landmark text by Frank Adam, "The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" and it appears to be a ruling by Lord Lyons. I can not find the exact page at the moment but that is why all of my artwork in colour has thise words and is used on everything that I make that is not metal. never used on metal.
Hope this is of interest and help.
All the best
Louis Walsh
Heraldic artist and owner of Celtic Studio