Celtic Crest

[Highland Logan]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

[Sketraw]

Thanks for the correction John. I took a look around at some heraldy site to see if I could get the answer. Check out the Harden site. I may have read it wrong.

Frank

Hi Frank, I know Mark Harden of Cowdeknowes very well, yes he seems to say that he is armigerous but he is not, as he is the heir to his fathers arms Barry Harden of Cowdenknowes (hence the three point label on his arms). However he is the Feudal Baron of Cowdenknowes and may well be able to wear feathers in his bunnet.

[Highland Logan]

Thanks for the clearification John.

Frank

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi Frank, I know Mark Harden of Cowdeknowes very well, yes he seems to say that he is armigerous but he is not, as he is the heir to his fathers arms Barry Harden of Cowdenknowes (hence the three point label on his arms). However he is the Feudal Baron of Cowdenknowes and may well be able to wear feathers in his bunnet.

Since the Abolition of Feudalism Act (Scotland) 2000 about the only perks left to the Baronage are their two eagle feathers, their two pipers, and a plethora of flags, banners, and standards. It seems that it is very much the custom among the peerage and baronage to regard all younger sons (and presumably) daughters as de facto armigers, and to further accord them a single eagle's feather. I've no idea where this came from, but the words "The Ilk" were muttered within earshot...

That said, it is entirely inappropriate for anyone other than a chieftain or feudal baron to display two eagle feathers as those are the distinctive and sole right of the baron or chieftain. The reasoning behind this is that there can only be one baron or chieftain at any given moment. Heirs, both apparent and presumptive, must wait until they accede to the barony or chieftainship before displaying both feathers.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Since the Abolition of Feudalism Act (Scotland) 2000 about the only perks left to the Baronage are their two eagle feathers, their two pipers, and a plethora of flags, banners, and standards. It seems that it is very much the custom among the peerage and baronage to regard all younger sons (and presumably) daughters as de facto armigers, and to further accord them a single eagle's feather. I've no idea where this came from, but the words "The Ilk" were muttered within earshot...

That said, it is entirely inappropriate for anyone other than a chieftain or feudal baron to display two eagle feathers as those are the distinctive and sole right of the baron or chieftain. The reasoning behind this is that there can only be one baron or chieftain at any given moment. Heirs, both apparent and presumptive, must wait until they accede to the barony or chieftainship before displaying both feathers.

Mark Harden has ascended to the barony, though. His dad stepped aside and passed the title on to his son -- at least this is my understanding from speaking with Mark (who lives relatively close to me, so I get to see him at many functions).

M

[Sketraw]

Mark Harden has ascended to the barony, though. His dad stepped aside and passed the title on to his son -- at least this is my understanding from speaking with Mark (who lives relatively close to me, so I get to see him at many functions).

M

Quite correct Mat as far as the Barony is concerned but his father is still the owner of the arms, as the arms were granted to him and he is still alive. Mark cant use them undifferenced until he snuffs it. So he uses the arms of his father by courtesy differenced by a three point label.

Hi Scott, Chieftains can wear 2 feathers but not Feudal Barons, I know some do as they try to legitimise the wearing of 2 feathers by saying most Chieftains were historicaly Laird or Feudal Barons which is quite true, however unless they have been recognised by Lyon as a Chieftain they are not suppose to.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi Scott, Chieftains can wear 2 feathers but not Feudal Barons, I know some do as they try to legitimise the wearing of 2 feathers by saying most Chieftains were historicaly Laird or Feudal Barons which is quite true, however unless they have been recognised by Lyon as a Chieftain they are not suppose to.

Aw, try selling that at a meeting of the Convention of the Baronage of Scotland! I'm not sure Lyon has ever pronounced on this matter-- it's the sort of mess I think he would want to avoid. That said, the Baron of Yeochrie seems to sport a pair of feathers as did (or so I am told) his predecessor... hmm.

[Sketraw]

Aw, try selling that at a meeting of the Convention of the Baronage of Scotland!

True again Scott, but the Convention of the Baronage of Scotland is not an authority and was put together, as you well know, because of the abolition of feudal tenure in 2004, to try and keep an historic record of baronies as they would no longer be recorded in the register of sasines.

Lyon Court only makes mention of Chieftain's wearing 2 feathers:

i.e. Heads of large branches of a Clan and Officially Recognised as such by the Lord Lyon King of Arms. Chieftains may wear either their own personal Crest within a plain circlet inscribed with the Motto, as for a Chief, but with TWO small eagle’s feathers instead of the Chief’s three. If the Chieftain is also a Peer, he may add the appropriate coronet of rank on top of the circlet.

[celticstudio]

Hi all,
Interesting to see that this discussion started with the purchase of a T shirt, copyright and has led to further exploration about black and white verus colour for the Clan crest.
MAC LACHLAN started the duscusion about value, quality and price. He decided to purchase a simple one colour T shirt because of price. Yes, it is far less expensive to silk screen in one colour no matter how thick the paint.

The second issue made me laugh. Copyright! Other writers here rbrought up the subject and others followed it to see if it was an "authorized" use. They discovered that the artwork had been "stolen". No royalty paid.. no time spent by the vender. Outright theft! Yes that is indeed true. As the owner and artist of Celtic Studio I can say that I have spent many, many hours of dedicated research and effort to draw and design of my Clan crest images (33 years actually!) It is a huge task and I do every crest in full colour. It is a true irony that while MACLACHLAN chose another company to supply is less expensive T shirt with "stolen" artwork he then chose to "STEAL" my artwork as his logo for use here. The inage displayed is mine and it still has my copyright symbol on it! MACLACHLAN.. you are forgiven. You may use it because you are not using it for commercial purposes. I allow this and any other member here my use my images which are readily available on my web page. If you ever find any error please let me know and I will change it .. I appreciate the feedback. We are here to make sure things are correct after all that is how true history survives.
Black and white as opposed to colour. My knowledge of this is that when the Clan crest is being displayed in a manner that is NOT in the metal form it is only correct to display it in colour as long as it is displayed with the words " An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh" I "discoverd this in the landmark text by Frank Adam, "The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" and it appears to be a ruling by Lord Lyons. I can not find the exact page at the moment but that is why all of my artwork in colour has thise words and is used on everything that I make that is not metal. never used on metal.
Hope this is of interest and help.
All the best
Louis Walsh
Heraldic artist and owner of Celtic Studio

[Maclachlan]

First let me say thank you, Louis! I appreciate the PM you sent to me.

Second, I also appreciate the fact that you also have plently of clan crested items for sale and the prices are more than fair. I only wish I had known all about this before hand. That said, I now know and will now send my credit card your way in the future (I'll be needing three more shirts as a minimum).

Again, thanks for your help in this matter!

Mac